Warning: This is a rush transcript generated automatically and may contain errors.
Asbed Bedrossian: Hello, everyone. Welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode. We have Arthur Khachatryan from the Hayastan Dashinq, Member of Parliament, Armenia Alliance. He’s joining us today to discuss the political field.
Mr. Khachatryan, welcome back to the Groong podcast. Very happy to have you here.
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, always a pleasure to be with you.
Hovik Manucharyan: Thank you for joining us, Mr.
Arthur Khachatryan: I haven’t been here for like three months.
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah, thank you.
Hovik Manucharyan: Khachatryan.
Hovik Manucharyan: We’re recording this on September 22nd. Yesterday, September 21st, was the 35th anniversary of Armenia’s independence. Now, what used to be a festive day has become a solemn day for many of us. regime in power in Armenia, it’s all a big party, complete with rabiz music in the Republic Square, food festivals all around Armenia, all lavishly supported by
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: Armenia’s budget. Can you let us know your reflections on this day, and especially in the context, I would say, of the results of the June 7th parliamentary elections because as falsified as they were, a certain
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: segment of the population still voted for Pashinyan and
Arthur Khachatryan: Sure.
Hovik Manucharyan: I presume these are the people who attended his festivals and concerts.
Arthur Khachatryan: Right. Well, a very important topic. September was a very joyful month, at least till 2020, because on the 2nd of September, the Artsakh Republic was formed, before Republic of Armenia declared its independence from the Soviet Union. And then on the 21st of September, the Republic of Armenia declared its independence.
Actually we declared independence on the 23rd of September, but since the referendum on independence took place on the 21st of September, September 21st is considered to be the Independence Day. So we had two holidays that we used to celebrate, first in Stepanakert, the capital of Artsakh and then Yerevan, the capital of the Republic of Armenia. However, after Pashinyan came, September became the month of sorrow. On the 27th of September of 2020, Azerbaijan launched a war.
I call it the First September War. That lasted till the 12th of December. And after the trilateral ceasefire statement, leaving only the north part of Artsakh. leaving only the north part of Artsakh. Then on the 19th of September, 2023, Azerbaijan attacked Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, annexed it, and Armenians were subjected to ethnic cleansing.
And on the 13th of September of 2022 was a day when Azerbaijan launched a very massive offensive against the Republic of Armenia, they seized about 20 square kilometers mainly in the Jermuk area and they expanded their occupied territories that they had occupied back in 2021. So on the Pashinyan regime, September is a month of sorrow. And we spent many days in Yerablur. However, Pashinyan utilizes the ancient Roman politics, bread and circus, to control the people.
I don’t want to say the mob, but to control the people. To show that everything is fine in Armenia, we have lots of festivals, we have lots of concerts. on the 13th of September on the day of Azeri offensive he had his cycling race in Armenia in Yerevan on the 19th of September he had many festivals the Gata Festival the crop festival I don’t know what kind of festival is going to have on the 27th of September, so this is the values that a real Armenia And unfortunately, yes, Pashinyan got majority as a result of elections. For the second time, he blackmailed the people with war, with the potential of the war.
Do you remember in 2021, he was saying, if not me, then the war will erupt, the war will continue. In 2026, he said, if not me, vote for me to institutionalize the peace . me if I don’t get constitutional majority, we were, erupt in September, so he blackmailed the people he keeps frightening them and the nation the people who had suffered a loss a terrible loss it’s very easy to frighten them with with another war other than that he they abused the public finance the public funds to but basically they do the public funds I call it a bribe, the buying of the vote buying. And then, of course, he had his administrative resources.
Not surprisingly, you know, during these last five years, he cracked down on the local self-administration, self-governance, local self-governance, and all the city mayors who are not in jail are under his direct supervision, let me
Hovik Manucharyan: Yeah.
Arthur Khachatryan: The last example was Arush Arushanyan of Goris. There was a prominent opposition member, then he had a sentence that was not applied to him and basically not to go to jail. He became Pashinyan’s supporter and his ally and he will be running with Pashinyan’s team during Goris elections.
Hovik Manucharyan: I mean, that must be some very serious leverage that the government used against him, but I can still, like, I could not excuse and I cannot see how anyone could do that. But let me just recount what happened in the elections. 51% of the people did not vote for Pashinyan. The collective opposition gathered hundreds of thousands of more votes than they did
Arthur Khachatryan: For now.
Hovik Manucharyan: in 2021.
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: in 2021, he believed these opposition voters gave Hayastan Dashinq and Strong Armenia a mandate to take power away from Pashinyan and to stop Armenia’s downward spiral. and I think that many of these supporters would still many of these voters would still support your decision to take up your mandates to the parliament despite all the falsifications, despite the overwhelming support it seems like almost from everyone including Turkey, Azerbaijan, EU
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: and the US, the big question for us still remains what next and unlike 2021 allow me to say this as well Pashinyan is being brutally honest with what he’s going to do
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: he’s directly saying what he’s going to do eroding national identity weakening links with the diaspora no talk about Artsakh, even about the legitimate right of return
Arthur Khachatryan: Uh-huh.
Hovik Manucharyan: and I’m not even talking about the genocide and how he has desecrated the memory of
Arthur Khachatryan: Uh-huh.
Hovik Manucharyan: our martyrs so Mr.
Asbed Bedrossian: And the upcoming efforts to ban the Dashnaktsutyun.
Hovik Manucharyan: Khachatryan Which we’ll talk about later.
Asbed Bedrossian: Okay, we’ll talk about that a little bit later.
Hovik Manucharyan: But what is the opposition strategy, Mr. Khachatryan? Are we really going to see five more years of Pashinyan? And can Armenia withstand any more of that?
Arthur Khachatryan: yeah, this time he was blunt about his, he is blunt about his intentions, at least the government program was adopted in late August, we are, that’s about a month ago, and so far what he says is consistent with what is in their program and what is in their election program, unlike 2021. 2021. But theoretically, he has five years, and I don’t know what he will be saying like three years after today. So whether he will be consistent with his statement or of changes in the macro environment or external environment, the original, you know, the political situation in the region, he might change his words.
So, you know, Pashinyan has never been consistent and uh you know what he said you know during the breakfast he says something during the lunch he says something completely different 180 degrees different from what he said during the breakfast and during the dinner or supper he will deny that he had ever talked about that subject uh yes opposition today we have more seats at the parliament and if not the political rigging when he deprived the Prosperous Armenia from five mandates uh even even with that he he has only three fifth while during the previous convocation at two thirds and he was able to suggest, you know, to change some articles of the Constitution, or he could offer a new text of the Constitution, put that on the referendum.
No, he can’t do that. He can’t amend constitutional laws. That is why he deprived Prosperous Armenia from their mandates. But nevertheless, today he has a weaker position at the Parliament.
As a result of 2018 and 2021, during those elections, he got more than 50% of the voters who participated in the elections. In 2026, he got less than 50%. So we see that his popularity is diminishing. I think more and more people are getting very disappointed for his policy. so I’m hopeful that we will have new elections earlier than in 2031.
So meanwhile, the task of the opposition is to mobilize the society, not to allow him to pass a new constitution, which is being drafted or has already been drafted in Baku. and this new constitution basically will be the anti-Berlin of the Third Republic, you correctly mentioned no mentioning of Artsakh no mentioning of Armenian genocide it’s going to create walls between Armenians in Armenia and Armenians in diaspora is going to pattern the rules, the laws according to which the Armenians from diaspora or Armenians, people of Armenian descent can get citizenship easily than foreigners. He attacks the Armenian Apostolic Church .
And basically, if you had a misfortune to watch his interview with Bun TV two days ago, listen to what he was saying. He says, you know, the government majority can amend any law, can amend the law how the church leadership is formed, can amend the law how the political party or NGO or news outlet leadership is formed. So this means he’s going to create a dictatorship. His last statements at the parliament were just horrific.
He told Levon Kocharyan, I will hang you and take off your shoes. and he said if the courts do not reach a verdict on illegal enrichment, I’m afraid the people will take by force what belongs to them. This is a lynch court. The prime minister cannot be an advocate for lynch court. And we convey this message to international media, to diplomats accrediting Armenia, that Armenia is, there’s not a backsliding of Armenia.
Armenia is racing towards dictatorship.
Hovik Manucharyan: Were you part of the delegation from the Armenian opposition that met some European representatives that were in Armenia recently, I believe from Nordic countries?
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah, the Swedish delegation and a couple of other, yeah.
Arthur Khachatryan: Yeah, there were two meetings. First, we met with diplomats, with the staff of embassies. But a few days ago, yeah, I was part of both delegations, and we met with the ambassadors of the Netherlands, Belgium, and Sweden.
Hovik Manucharyan: What is their reaction? I’m just very curious.
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, what happens behind the curtains stays behind the curtains. But we basically conveyed our deep discontent with Pashinyan’s policy and basically quoted Martin Luther King saying that at the end of the day we will not remember the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends. So I called them to be vocal and to react to what’s happening in Armenia.
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Khachatryan, Strong Armenia and Narek Karapetyan are being, you know, they had a campaign around Tigranashen, and I think that’s a legitimate worry,
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: but there are also some opposition voices who are saying that Pashinyan, even before the handover of Tigranashen, other so-called enclaves, under the guise of enclaves, other territories of Armenia will be handed over first.
Asbed Bedrossian: Like in the Tavush area.
Hovik Manucharyan: Can you tell us more about what you think the sequencing of the Pashinyan
Arthur Khachatryan: Yes.
Hovik Manucharyan: regime is going to be and what threats and when do you think they’ll happen?
Arthur Khachatryan: it’s not, I think Pashinyan deliberately started talking about Tigranashen. He called Tigranashen Karki, though the village of Tigranashen is part of Armenia. The law on the territorial division of Armenia mentions Tigranashen as part of Ararat’s a large community as part of
Hovik Manucharyan: Community. Community. Yeah.
Arthur Khachatryan: Paruyr Sevak village. So it’s a district of Paruyr Sevak village. I have an official reply from Minister of Territorial Administration and Infrastructure saying that the village is part of Armenia. So Armenia has accepted its sovereign jurisdiction over this village. cannot hand it over to Azerbaijan, so he calls it Karki.
Even when I asked him why, why are you using this word Karki? And by the way, while you are using not to one instead of not, he says, he says, I want to take the nerve out. But you know, Azerbaijan for instance, never speaks about Tigranashen, an Armenian exclave in Gerabaghli, in the other clinic and as I always call it Bashkend, so we see an asymmetry So Pashinyans spoke about Tigranashen, but I think that he will raise the issue, he will pass some territories that Azerbaijan claims to be theirs in northeastern Armenia, in Tavush region.
And surprisingly, Pashinyan, who in 2022 was saying that there is no historical evidence, there is no legal evidence that there are Azeri enclaves in Armenia. And he says that maps, maps are just drawings. What are the documents that say that Azerbaijan has exclaves in Armenia? Today, just by 180 degrees, he changed his approach.
Asbed Bedrossian: Have you seen these documents?
Arthur Khachatryan: What documents.
Asbed Bedrossian: Whatever documents, I mean, if the maps are not important and there are documents
Arthur Khachatryan: No, no one has seen that.
Asbed Bedrossian: that say this, have you seen these documents?
Arthur Khachatryan: This is very interesting. No, no one has seen that. This public hasn’t seen that. Pashinyan refers to Alma-Ata Declaration.
Alma-Ata Declaration is not a legal document. It’s just a declaration, absolutely.
Asbed Bedrossian: Nor are there maps attached to it.
Arthur Khachatryan: But during the deliberation on government program, He said something that’s beyond any logic. I just wrote it down. He says that the maps that ensure the status quo of Alma-Ata Declaration are the maps of 79, in 1979, of the General Staff of the Soviet Union. There are no maps attached to Alma-Ata Declaration. has never spoken about any map.
Alma-Ata Declaration never said that the administrative borders between former Soviet republics shall be deemed as state borders between newly independent countries. Back in 2008, Azerbaijan tried to push that, but the international community, the Minsk Group co-chairs, basically in a very strong wording said that it would not allow Azerbaijan to use legalistic and historical arguments to deviate or to change the basis of regulation of Artsakh conflict. But today Pashinyan is repeating the Azeri narratives that will turn down by Armenian authorities for 30 years and by international community. say that Pashinyan echoes Azeri narratives.
He is the conduit, he is the comprador, he passes the Azeri statements to the people of Armenia.
Asbed Bedrossian: Well, Mr. Khachatryan, while these defeatist narratives are continuing in
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Asbed Bedrossian: Armenia, in the name of protecting the peace, whatever peace this is, there’s been a noticeable escalation in Azerbaijan’s rhetoric around Armenian history, culture, and responsibility of the destruction of Armenian religious sites.
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm. True. Mm-hmm.
Asbed Bedrossian: And this includes, and I’m specifically referring to, statements by Hikmet Hajiyev concerning Gandzasar and Dadivank. Now, some Civil Contract members, specifically like Mirzoyan and Alen Simonyan, well, you know, mostly they’ve been silent, but there have been a couple of squeaks from these guys that they called their counterparts, expressed some kind of disapproval about what they’ve heard Hajiyev say. But there hasn’t been anything. They’ve at most said things like, for example, oh, there was a response from Matenadaran, blah, blah, blah.
I mean, I won’t even really dignify all these things. How should official Yerevan respond when Azerbaijan makes statements that challenge Armenian history, religion, heritage, and, you know, they don’t seem to care about protecting the peace process, air quotes, between the countries?
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, Azerbaijan continues its narratives that Armenians are not native to this part of the world. They were natives to Anatolia. They invaded South Caucasus sometime in 18th, 19th centuries. All the monasteries in Artsakh are Udi or Albanian churches.
Later on, he will say they are the same churches. So if the Dadivank and Gandzasar are Albanian churches, this means that Etchmiadzin is Albanian church either. And we’ll say this proves that this territory cannot be called Armenia. This territory is Western Azerbaijan.
So what Hajiyev says was manifestation of Azeri state policy. And the response should have been on a political level. someone who has equal status in the government bureaucracy as Hikmet Hajiyev. Hikmet Hajiyev, he is just his aide to the president, however he is one of the leading people in the whole negotiation process, starting from like the last 20 years, and today he is a key negotiator or key envoy from Azerbaijan during this so-called peace process. and Hikmet Hajiyev was the first foreigner who visited Armenia after the elections on the 7th of June this year.
Pashinyan and before that the Speaker of the Parliament, Rubinyan, fearfully said, yeah, you know what, the best entity or institution to respond to pseudoscientific statements by Hajiyev is Matenadaran. had made up, Matenadaran showed Magdalena Grono the original of the manuscripts. Matenadaran is not a Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Matenadaran is a scientific institution, and this is not a scientific argument.
This is political statement that should have been refuted by a political statement from Armenia. but since Armenia’s government all Armenian government does is bowing in front of Azerbaijan and trying to echo Azeri narratives in Armenia this is what you were expecting from Pashinyan but this is what we should have never expected from real Armenian authorities from patriotic national authorities
Asbed Bedrossian: Let
Arthur Khachatryan: crisis.
Asbed Bedrossian: me also repeat what you just said, how we need to remember the silence of our so-called friends, how we need to remember the silence of our so-called friends, and smiling and laughing at that event.
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, actually, we had sent a letter to Magdalena Grono asking for a meeting. The meeting never happened.
Asbed Bedrossian: Too busy at the Matenadaran, probably. Let me ask, what kind of a message are we getting from Azerbaijan when they
Asbed Bedrossian: mean to do these things? I’m wondering if it is just a clown show or if it is a political message to Armenia
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Asbed Bedrossian: that we do not care about this process. You go through whatever you’re calling the peace process, but for us, it’s something else. What do you think? Thank you.
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, look, Azerbaijan and Turkey supported Pashinyan during the last two elections. And even during the street protests. You remember when the people were on the street, the Turkish foreign minister back in 2021 issued a statement that they will not tolerate change of government or any attacks against the constitutional order in Armenia. So Turkey came to rescue Pashinyan.
During this election, during this campaign, we heard nearly the same, not nearly the same messages. During the campaign, Turkey issued a statement saying that they are in the process of eliminating the last obstacle to direct trade between Armenia and Azerbaijan. and Aliyev made a couple of statements that it’s peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan, it has no issues with the Armenian government but the opposition misbehaves so they supported Pashinyan. The message they sent is that if Pashinyan is re-elected, it will be okay. If the opposition will be elected, problems to come.
This was direct interference into Armenia’s elections Pashinyan and the support has its price. And possibly Pashinyan had promised them that he will get two-thirds of the votes and he would change the constitution without any problem. So now the Turks and Azeris are sending signals that he has to deliver what he had
Asbed Bedrossian: They’re disappointed.
Arthur Khachatryan: promised. They are disappointed. Okay, so figuratively I said, when Dr. Faust sold his soul to the Satan, you know, Mephistopheles came to say, okay, you have to deliver what you had promised.
And the recent tough remarks are the reminders to Pashinyan that he had to deliver what he had promised. And this drives Pashinyan nervous. That’s why we see his eccentric statements at the parliament or during the press conferences. He understands that to fulfill his promises to Azerbaijan, he needs to annihilate Armenian opposition.
And the leadership of opposition blocs are in jail. and the recent attacks against ARF Dashnaktsutyun are just despicable. Arman Yeghoyan telling, you know, telling that we have to dry up the roots of Dashnaktsutyun.
Hovik Manucharyan: Eradicate, yeah.
Arthur Khachatryan: Eradicate Dashnaktsutyun. I’m just dry up the roots. Literally, I just, just adverb in translation.
Hovik Manucharyan: What he said?
Arthur Khachatryan: Kristine Vardanyan shall be the last ARF MP ever sitting at the parliament. That reminded me of a Turkish statement in 1915 that only one Armenian shall be kept in the museum. So we expect attacks against Dashnaktsutyun soon. We are ready.
Hovik Manucharyan: Do you believe that this is just political speech or do you believe that there is real intent? Because, I mean, as long as the AR…
Arthur Khachatryan: There is real intent. They have been talking about their plans to forbid ARF, to suspend ARF in Armenia for a whole year already. And recently they had a very funny, you know, rhetoric. They say that, well, all the troubles are because the ARF ideology, all of us, they mean all of Civil Contract leadership, thought as ARF people.
And the root cause of the problems is that they thought they had the same ideology as ARF. So I say, guy, you act like a quadrober. okay you say you are dogs you bite someone and the court instead of sentencing you sentences dogs but so they said they said I expect large-scale attacks the ARF very soon
Asbed Bedrossian: What can the ARF do?
Asbed Bedrossian: What can anyone do when the political system and the judicial system and the police system are all controlled from one person, essentially?
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, I can say what anyone shall not do is surrendering. Okay, when you say, when you start thinking that, you know, Robert Kocharyan is behind bars, Samvel Karapetyan is behind bars, Gagik Tsarukyan is behind bars, His Holiness may be behind bars very soon. Who am I to resist Pashinyan? And surrender, this means paving road to dictatorship, to Pashinyan’s dictatorship.
Everyone, political parties, civic organization, ordinary people, shall resist. Shall do whatever is possible to stop him from establishing his own dictatorship. we have instruments? Support? I don’t know.
I don’t know. But if you roll a snowball, it can turn into an avalanche.
Hovik Manucharyan: Worrying developments, indeed. Mr. Khachatryan, I want to ask you a quick question about TRIPP, which we talk a lot about on our podcast, but I want to ask a specific question. I believe it was the foreign minister of the Baku regime that recently said that while the TRIPP corridor will go through Armenian territory, the entry and exit will be solely controlled by
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: Azerbaijan and will be located on Azerbaijani grounds.
Arthur Khachatryan: There is nothing new.
Hovik Manucharyan: How does this…
Arthur Khachatryan: There is nothing new in this statement.
Hovik Manucharyan: But…
Arthur Khachatryan: Last year, Aliyev said exactly the same. He said that Zangezur Corridor shall pass through TRIPP. Entrance and exits will be controlled by Azerbaijan. No Azeri citizen, no businessman shall have any encounter with Armenian officials. didn’t dare to oppose to this statement.
He just said, okay, yeah, in the era of technology, we don’t need to have border guards. We can have robots, humanoid robots or any robots who will control that. This means that Azeris will not see any Armenian, but this also means that Armenia will control the entrance and exits into its territory. Then he compared the situation with United Arab Emirates, but it’s a complete bluff because if you arrive in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Sharjah, you have an encounter, you know, you’re getting a permit to enter the country by a man or a woman of flesh and blood.
Okay, no robots, just people decide to put a stamp passport or not. But this is, you know, accusing Pashinyan of cheating is, you know, it’s just accusing rain of being wet.
Asbed Bedrossian: It should be reminded that when you are in Rome, you’re going to see some Romans.
Arthur Khachatryan: And you have to act like Romans. Yeah, you have to. You have to. So basically, this means…
Hovik Manucharyan: But let me just paint a very quick question.
Hovik Manucharyan: I’m an Armenian. I want to go to Iran. How do I do that? I’m an Armenian.
Can I use this corridor to travel from the east to the west or vice versa on this corridor within Armenia itself?
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well… There are lots of uncertainties about TRIPP.
Initially, it was thought to be just railroad and then possibly the automobile road. Then it turned out to be railroad, automobile road, gas pipeline, oil pipeline, electric-wise and internet-wise.
Asbed Bedrossian: Information Highway
Arthur Khachatryan: and information highways. So it’s just a multimodal territory through which all kind of communication has. How wide this territory will be, no one knows. The southern border of the corridor is the Aras River.
Where is the northern border? No one knows. I mean, maybe Pashinyan and Aliyev and Mr. Trump know, public.
I had asked the same question actually a year ago. I said, can an Armenian board the train in Nrnadzor and get off the train in Agarak? And I didn’t get any answer to that question.
Asbed Bedrossian: And this is fully within the Armenian territory in the south.
Arthur Khachatryan: What about the… Right, right, right.
Asbed Bedrossian: Right, from one village to another village.
Arthur Khachatryan: You’re right. Yeah. Yeah, it’s like from the eastern western border of the Meghri region. What about the Armenian-Iranian border?
Because when in 2001, the Key West proposal was on the table that said that, you know, Azerbaijan recognized the Armenian jurisdiction of Nagorno-Karabakh and Lachin corridor in return to a sovereign passage, technically it would be like tunnels and bridges that do not hinder the functioning of Armenian and Iranian border. What’s going to happen to this border, no one knows. So this TRIPP is at the Constitutional Court. When it hits the parliament, I think we’re going to have many questions.
But knowing Pashinyan, I am afraid that all the questions will remain unanswered. But not answering to a question can give more information about your intention than an answer. And also we have lots of questions about this TRIPP enterprise, why they are tax exempt, why the American party will get 74 percent, many, many questions. It says that, you know, the Azeris will get unimpeded access. why they are tax exempt, why the American party will get 74 percent, many, many questions. have to heroically overcome, but Azer is entering Armenia from Horadiz, or from, excuse me, from
Hovik Manucharyan: No, Nrnadzor.
Arthur Khachatryan: eastern border of Meghri, shall be exempted. Okay? It says, unimpeded access. What are these impediments?
Is this border clearances, customs declaration, what is that? And they keep that in secrecy.
Asbed Bedrossian: Mr. Khachatryan, the Russian 102nd Military Base in
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm
Asbed Bedrossian: Gyumri has suddenly become a subject of public discussions again,
Arthur Khachatryan: -hmm.
Asbed Bedrossian: even though the contract really doesn’t expire until 2044, and even though neither Yerevan nor Moscow are interested in taking responsibility for having proposed anything about it. But Putin raised the issue in Bishkek and said that if desired, we could walk away from it even tomorrow. And Pashinyan replied that Armenia has never asked for that withdrawal. But if they did it, we would not object.
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, this is interesting.
Asbed Bedrossian: So explain to us what’s actually happening here. Why is this issue on the table right now when the contract doesn’t expire until 2044?
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, this is really interesting. The protocol part, which was available to the public, from these 10 minutes, or less than 10 minutes, we can conclude that it was a very tense discussion. Well, it has discussion. Putin press for a referendum.
He says whatever decision the Armenian public makes, the Armenian people make, we will welcome, but we need to see the opinion of the Armenian people. and he says whatever decision you make, you can do whatever you want, but not at the expense of Eurasian Economic Union. Armenia’s reply was very interesting. I was just laughing loudly. He says that, well, we had to adopt this law on the process of accession to EU because if we do not have this law, the civil group that tabled this motion, because Armenian legislation says if you have more than 50,000 signatures, you can put any draft to be considered by the National Assembly.
They said if we don’t do that, they could have gathered a quarter million of signatures and the issue of joining the EU would be put on referendum and if the people of Armenia voted for European Union then they will pass the point of no return. So instead of criticizing us for adopting this law, you should praise us, you should say thank you to his government for adopting this law. This is of course anyone, any interlocutor will be offended to listen to this rating, but the issue of the 102nd Military Base was not touched upon during these 10 minutes.
Whether it was a topic of discussion during the behind-the-scenes negotiations, I don’t know. I don’t know. I think so, otherwise it just couldn’t have dropped out of the blue
Asbed Bedrossian: Hmm.
Arthur Khachatryan: I think this issue was discussed
Asbed Bedrossian: So why doesn’t either side want to take responsibility of pushing this topic forward in public? I mean, what’s the message that we’re getting from these guys?
Arthur Khachatryan: I don’t know.
Asbed Bedrossian: Why is it a public topic, but nobody says, yeah, get out of the country, or saying, well, yeah, we want to get… Who is this base more important to at this point in time?
Arthur Khachatryan: I think to Armenia. I think to Armenia. It’s very interesting. If you listen to the last interview of Alen Simonyan, when he was still the speaker after the election, he knew he wouldn’t be the speaker of the new convocation.
In his interview with Russian edition of Deutsche Welle, when the German correspondent asked a question about 102nd Military Base, well, I’m not saying that Russians are going to protect us, but what are you going to do when Germany is under attack? If you don’t have an answer to these questions, you do not have a moral right to speak about 102nd Military Base. Ironically, this was exactly what I said during the campaigning to a very large group of journalists from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. They asked about the base.
I said, okay, imagine the base is not in Armenia. And Armenia is under attack from Turkey or Azerbaijan. Will Bundeswehr intervene? Will you react?
If you don’t have the answer to this question, you can’t ask this question to me. I think Russians are improving their relations with Georgians. Relations between Russia and Azerbaijan are getting sour, but relations with Georgia are warming up.
So I assume that if Russians want to strengthen their southern border, Georgia can be enough. they have alternatives what is our alternative when we speak about when we speak about security issues with our partners from European Union they say we are not a security organization talk to NATO well you can’t imagine that NATO will open its gates and admit Armenia So Armenia won’t be, you know, admit Armenia into its ranks. Neither I don’t think that NATO will have its bases in Armenia to protect Armenia from NATO members from Turkey or from Azerbaijan. So Russians have an alternative.
Asbed Bedrossian: Mm-hmm.
Arthur Khachatryan: We don’t have an alternative. Today, even though Pashinyan speak about Armenia, you know, Armenia not joining any bloc, but today we see that countries are forming blocs to ensure their security and safety. Recently, we saw Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan form the bloc. We saw Sweden and Finland joining NATO.
We saw U.S., UK, and Australia forming a military alliance. and when Pashinyan says we won’t rely on any bloc, this is really funny I don’t think that he doesn’t understand the situation he understands the situation but this is how he wants to cheat the public
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Khachatryan, on the topic of this Russia-Armenia relations, it’s actually, you mentioned this, I guess it could be called a psychological complex that Pashinyan has against the former presidents and the former leadership.
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: and he’s intent in putting them all behind bars
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: and we know Gagik Khachatryan, Gagik Tsarukyan, Robert Kocharyan’s family and he’s now playing this Bolshevik card where he’s going to take the wealth from these people and from these rich people
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: allegedly stolen money and distributed to the people
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: but I want to ask the question in terms of on the geopolitical sphere Because we heard Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Mikhail Galuzin, say that violations of Russia’s interests and those of Russian companies and companies doing business with Russia will not go without response.
Arthur Khachatryan: Mm-hmm.
Hovik Manucharyan: Do you think this Pashinyan’s so-called anti-corruption policy will become another front in the broader Armenia-Russia confrontation?
Arthur Khachatryan: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Pashinyan wants to have a total grip on power in Armenia. And especially, you know, to silence down the criticism from the West because of this Bolshevik style expropriation of private property, justification is these are businesses who are linked to russia and people and the owners of these businesses have very close relations to russia uh basically by expropriating the private property i am diminishing russia’s influence on armenia so if you want armenia to drift away from Russia towards European Union, just have your eyes shut.
And unfortunately, he manages to sell this to especially to Europe.
Because, again, you know, what is, I said in the beginning of our interview, okay, if the courts do not reach to this verdict that the property is illegal, then the people will go and take what belongs to them forcefully. you know these kind of statements should have been criticized harshly but unfortunately we do not see anything at least publicly he says that two billion dollars two billion dollars were stolen so he’s going to bring back and give it to the people And obviously, many people say, okay, go, go, go, bring this $2 billion, because if you divide $2 billion to $3 million, then everyone can get something So a family of four can get about $3,000.
So people are naively expecting to get $3,000 per family. But let’s take a few examples, okay? the former head of the customs department, Armen Avetisyan, donated his lucrative, very expensive hotel to the government. The government sold this hotel at a deep discount to Narek Nalbandyan, a nouveau riche that was patronized, or the word on the street says it was patronized by the Pashinyan family. They sold it to him at a deep discount, even gave them budget loan to buy this.
It’s still a lucrative hotel and the people who are expecting to get their $700 cannot afford going to that hotel, Golden Palace, for their holiday. Another example is Hovik Abrahamyan’s villa. So the villa was under arrest and all of a sudden, the arrest was lifted for 24 hours and his villa was sold to the same Narek, Nalbandyan. People got nothing.
Or he expropriated Multi Wellness, a wellness complex in downtown Yerevan. Now it’s not Multi Wellness, it belongs to the municipality and the prices are the same, very expensive, not affordable to an average citizen. So, so far the people who were expecting or hoping that the Bolsheviks will give them something, a loaf of bread, they are disappointed, but they are still hopeful that they will get something down the road. And obviously this is just a despicable bluff.
Asbed Bedrossian: I hope that people are eventually smart enough to understand that this is basically
Arthur Khachatryan: Thank you.
Asbed Bedrossian: a shift in elite, the confiscation of properties and wealth from a previous elite to
Arthur Khachatryan: Well, absolutely.
Asbed Bedrossian: an elite that is actually aligned with Pashinyan and his cronies. It’s not an anti-corruption campaign or anything like that.
Arthur Khachatryan: Yeah, no, that’s the right distribution of wealth.
Asbed Bedrossian: Pure demagoguery.
Arthur Khachatryan: Absolutely.
Asbed Bedrossian: Mr. Khachatryan, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate and we know
Arthur Khachatryan: That pleasure’s mine.
Asbed Bedrossian: that you are very busy. So keep on the good work and do not surrender.
Arthur Khachatryan: Thank you. Always a pleasure talking to you. No pasarán.
Hovik Manucharyan: Thank you, Mr. Khachatryan.
Arthur Khachatryan: Thank you.
Asbed Bedrossian: That’s our show, recorded on September 22, 2026. We’ve been talking with Mr. Arthur Khachatryan, who is an MP from the Hayastan Dashinq, Armenia Alliance, and is also a member of the ARF, Dashnaktsutyun. In the past, he has held government posts such as Deputy Minister of Territorial Administration and Development, Governor of Shirak, and Minister of Agriculture.
Experienced man. For more information, go to our show notes, podcasts.groong.org slash episode number. Click on the links. Read them up.
Hovik Manucharyan: What did you think of our discussion today, Asbed?
Asbed Bedrossian: Good discussion. I think it’s the tip of the iceberg, to be honest, and there’s a lot more to talk about, but sometimes I sense that there are some things they don’t want to say. Clearly, they have conversations in the parliament, and they can’t disclose everything to the media, and we’re part of that sphere. What do you think?
And why are you asking me that question?
Hovik Manucharyan: Because I find it extremely difficult to stay sane when I experience these two realities, the people that we talk to, the dire threats that we see to our homeland, and then a bunch of people who are completely indifferent, such as many in the diaspora. I think that, you know, it can be explained away by many things, apathy, PTSD, or whatever, but I just find it difficult to stay sane amidst all these, like, outright attacks against our identity, and the fact that we have to present this information in an organized way,
Asbed Bedrossian: With a straight face.
Hovik Manucharyan: and with a straight face, not use the F word. I was called by one of my friends who said, hey, don’t use the F word on Groong, man. And I go, okay, I never, you know, that’s not, but these are real emotions, and it’s very difficult to control them. But anyway, let us know what you think, folks.
Asbed Bedrossian: Well, Hovik, let me add one more thing before we close. It’s very difficult to go through September, right? There are so many dates in September right now. There’s September 2nd, there’s September 19, there’s 21, there’s 23.
Hovik Manucharyan: Asbed, you think…
Asbed Bedrossian: It’s like every week we have to commemorate these things with a straight face. It’s very difficult.
Hovik Manucharyan: You think…
Asbed Bedrossian: And the F-word will come out sometimes simply because that’s how you feel.
Hovik Manucharyan: Exactly. And as difficult as it is for us, imagine parents of soldiers. You know, I, for the last three, four years, I don’t want to present myself as someone, you know, holier than thou or whatever. I have not been able to celebrate New Year’s because I chose to be there at Yerablur with the parents, and so did many.
I mean, it’s not just me. Imagine the parents of these people who gave everything, and now they have to hear all this bullshit. I mean, this is the reality we live in. So if you guys know of a way, how do we stay sane, folks?
Let us know your ideas and thoughts.
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah, yeah. Sadly, there’s very little coverage of those parents who suffer quietly, but they’re there. Don’t forget, there’s like 4,000 or 5,000 families that
Hovik Manucharyan: And not just parents. I mean, there’s a…
Asbed Bedrossian: lost people. There are over 10,000 injured families. That’s not insignificant. That’s thousands and thousands of people who are suffering quietly, and there’s absolutely no mainstream media coverage of their plight in Armenia.
Hovik Manucharyan: Yeah, I just haven’t seen, I mean, the only analogy I can make, I think it’s not originally me who did it, but this is like, you know, Weimar Germany, where everyone was intoxicated, everyone was disillusioned, there was a quiet population of the, you know, soldiers and military who suffered the defeat, But the rest of the population just chose to let it loose and follow the bread and circus. And we know where that landed.
Asbed Bedrossian: There will be an awakening.
Hovik Manucharyan: But this has to be stopped.
Asbed Bedrossian: There will be a rough awakening.
Hovik Manucharyan: There has to be a stop. I can’t imagine five more years of this hell. Sorry for that, folks. But it’s, yeah.
So, you know, I think that the opposition is in a tough place. and I could sense from Mr. Khachatryan’s wording that there’s a lot of, it all depends on geopolitics, unfortunately. Armenia has relinquished whatever trump cards, whatever agency Armenia had,
Asbed Bedrossian: There’s no agency. It has no agency.
Hovik Manucharyan: they have, Pashinyan has relinquished this.
So like it or not, even if the opposition is fully in power, we are at the mercy of external geopolitics and what’s worrying about that is that other geopolitical actors no matter how friendly or how Christian they are they’re going to act in their own interests no matter what anyway I’m ranting but let’s go on thank you for watching folks podcasts.groong.org donate we really need support you know we’ve been automating a lot of things your support matters for that and of course like comment and share and all those nice things um if you have a few hypes left you know give those those as well i think i learned that you can do more than you know you have three hypes a week but you can use your hype uh multiple times so double hype us why not thank you everyone you
Asbed Bedrossian: I’m Asbed Bedrossian. Talk to you next week.
Hovik Manucharyan: Bye-bye.