Warning: This is a rush transcript generated automatically and may contain errors.
Asbed Bedrossian: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode. We’re going to talk about diaspora advocacy, Armenia-Diaspora relations, past, present and future. So we have with us Anthony Barsamian, who has held extensive leadership roles in various Armenian institutions, such as the Armenian Assembly of America, the Armenia Tree Project, the Aurora Humanitarian Initiative, and more. Mr.
Barsamian has served as chairman of the Board of Trustees of the Armenian Assembly, securing robust U.S.-Armenia relations and aid packages for the homeland, and driving human rights advocacy on Capitol Hill. Mr. Barsamian, welcome to the Groong Podcast.
Anthony Barsamian: Thank you, Asbed. Thank you, Hovik. Pleasure to be here.
Hovik Manucharyan: Thank you for joining, Mr. Barsamian.
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Barsamian, since this is the first time you’re on our show, please tell us more about yourself. What drove you to Armenian-American activism? What do you consider major milestones in your career?
Anthony Barsamian: Thanks so much, Hovik. So, I mean, what brought me to this point is I started in the church. You know, in America, I’m a strong believer that the Armenian churches pretty much contributed to the survival of the Armenian diaspora , as we call it. And as an Armenian American, I grew up in Worcester, Mass.
The first Armenian community. I was telling Asbed earlier that we have the oldest cemetery where my grandparents are buried. It goes back to the 1860s, the tombstones in Armenian. I have a sense of the community.
I used to work as a youth director for the Armenian church. I traveled to many of the communities. Many of the bishops and the clergy in America. But that was that sort of shaped my early years.
And then, when I was 21, I went by invitation of Vazgen Vehapar to Armenia with a group of young people. We spent a month in Armenia. I went to Moscow, went to St. Petersburg, then Leningrad in 1987, so a year before the earthquake.
So I saw Armenia develop from the earliest times, the late end of the Soviet period. Right through independence and then going forward my wife has done medical work in Armenia so between her work and our work and we helped establish the Marriott in Yerevan, the first international hotel and then working and with the assembly obviously has been hugely an honor. I believe I’m a servant of the community. And we can talk about any aspect of that, whether it’s local, whether it’s what’s going on in Armenia.
These all have had impacts, not just on me, but I think an entire three generations of Armenians in America. So all of that. And the fact that that is what’s important is that we’re all working together in unison if we can.
Asbed Bedrossian: Mr. Barsamian, a quick question before we get into advocacy and Armenia and diaspora. I’m also interested. You just said the cemetery in Worcester actually has Armenian graves from the 1860s.
That’s very interesting. But tell us also how your family arrived in America. I think you told me that your family has been here over 100 years.
Anthony Barsamian: Yes. I mean, our family came from and actually, which is . And we have a strong sense of that. You know, I know my family’s history.
They were part of the genocide. My grandparents on my father’s side My great-grandmother was the principal of the school, the church school. So they went from there to Aleppo, Syria, to Haleb on the march. And by getting help from people along the way, some Turks, some Arabs, they made it out.
But I have that great sense of what my wife is also My mother’s family went to Ethiopia. So my mother’s family left Sepasya after the first wave of ethnic cleansing, went to Alexandria, Egypt, set up businesses there. Half the family came to the United States, the other half of the family is in Ethiopia. And I still have about 20, 30 cousins in Ethiopia.
Asbed Bedrossian: So when you do your advocacy, you have spent multiple years of visiting Armenia. How long have you been visiting?
Anthony Barsamian: So again, in 87, I started after the earthquake. We didn’t go for a couple of years. I was in law school. And then starting about 92, 93, it’s been at least twice a year.
I think it’s over 60, 62 visits twice a year for the remainder of that time. And also, again, I mentioned to you that I was pretty active with the church. I served on the 1700th Centenary of the Church under Karekin I. And that was again a very inspirational moment in my life, because not only did I know Vazgen Vehapar, but Karekin I, Karekin II, I understand the Church, I know the patriarchs of Istanbul and Jerusalem specifically.
Patriarch Torkom was somebody who I grew up with, almost like a grandfather figure. So I have a lot of depth and the bishops in North America I’m very close with and we talk quite frequently.
Hovik Manucharyan: And what do you consider milestones in your career as part of your experience with Armir?
Anthony Barsamian: So I think a couple things. The people that you come into contact with is super important. So Carolyn Mugar, who founded the Armenia Tree Project, is clearly a huge inspiration to me because of the work she does. I mean, this year they’re planting the 10 millionth tree in Armenia.
And Carolyn takes on those hard projects. So when she went in after the earthquake, when they were cutting trees, she decided that’s what she’s going to take on. Now that’s something that most people don’t take on. A project that difficult, but she took it on, and she did it largely under the radar screen.
We didn’t deal with government in those days. We just went about our work and picked up plots of land and planted trees, and now we’re on to 10 million trees. The people you meet is hugely important. I would say the one thing people forget is when we first started going to Armenia in 1987 or even the early years, we didn’t know the people of Armenia.
We’re new to us. So what’s happened now is over the 40 years, we’ve grown up together. So there are people in Armenia who I know very well, certainly the Ambassador Corps and the foreign ministers who we know intimately well because now we’ve spent time with. People always ask me, who’s your favorite president or prime minister of Armenia?
And I always say, I don’t have a favorite because my job is not to like them. My job is to work with them. Well, that’s different in the diplomatic corps. I do have friends in the diplomatic corps.
I would dare say in Armenia I’ve never sat down to a private dinner with a president or a prime minister because I work with them. I serve the Armenian Assembly, I serve the Armenian, I serve Aurora. My job is really different. I am an advocate.
That’s the one thing I’m proud of. As a lawyer advocating for business in Armenia, I thought the Marriott project was amazing when we first had that done. And the families that decided to go in weren’t sure they were going to make their money out of that. And nobody, to my knowledge, has really taken money out of that project.
It’s more to serve the people of Armenia. So that’s an important project. Tree Project, as I mentioned. And then here in America, I think genocide recognition for all of us, for you, Asbed, for Hovik, it belongs to all of us.
And having it finally recognized by the Congress and by President Biden when it was recognized. For me, it was a capstone of our work, aside from the other work we have to do, which is securing Armenia’s future by supporting the country always through national security and making sure that it has a strong military and a strong awareness of Armenian identity. That’s going to be important going forward.
Asbed Bedrossian: Tell us a little bit how you work with other organizations, especially in America. For example, your relations with the ANCA, your relations with the AGBU, various of the major institutions, including the church.
Anthony Barsamian: So the church is quite regular. I consult as a lawyer to the patriarch of Jerusalem and the brotherhood there on issues. So that’s one I’m very close with. So I understand what’s going on in Jerusalem.
My son, by the way, lived there about a year and a half ago and met amazing families there, the Hagopians, the Hagopjernasian, the Balians, amazing, amazing people. Right. There’s that aspect. I went and spent some time there.
Again, I’ve been to Jerusalem a few times, so I know that as well. In terms of my work, I would say that getting to know these people are super important in these different communities. So when you see the leadership of the Armenian community, I think especially during the Second Artsakh War, we all stopped thinking of ourselves as separate organizations and started thinking of ourselves as a community. So certainly, you know, Sam Simonian, who now heads AGBU, is doing an amazing job.
Aram’s been at the ANCA helm. He has the best interest of our community at heart always, even though he takes some very big hits. And there are times that it makes it a little stressful because the State Department or the, you know, the National Security Council, they pick and choose who they want to talk to. And that’s created some some issues for me.
I’m an American first, I’ve always said this, I’ve been offered Armenian citizenship, I haven’t taken it because I consider myself as an American. It would be a great honor to be an Armenian citizen, but right now I feel like if I don’t serve the country and fight for the country and register my car there, I don’t belong, I don’t have that privilege of being an Armenian citizen. My feeling is the organizational leadership right now is at the best in that you have people who really believe in the best of Armenia. And, you know, we talk with other organizations, we work with other organizations, you know, we work with Tufenkian Foundation.
When they’re building communities, we’re following with, you know, greening those communities. Or there’s many, many organizations out there. Certainly the church we’re very close with, and I was just in Armenia in June, and I met quietly with the government, not at the highest levels because the new government has not formed, so we don’t necessarily deal with the government until it comes into place. But we met with Vehapar, we met with members of this government and the government that’s coming together, and friends, the people who just serve in foreign ministry.
But I would say right now is a healthy moment in the Armenian community in America. Anybody can pick up the phone and talk to each other, and you have some really direct, straight answers, and nobody’s really hiding behind your organizations anymore.
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah, that’s really important. Now, you mentioned the Armenian Genocide, and for 75 years, Armenian Americans worked tirelessly for U.S. recognition. Essentially, now that recognition is formally achieved. So are we done with genocide recognition in the US?
What are our next steps?
Anthony Barsamian: No, I don’t think so. I was a part of it. I would like to say I was probably one of the last laps in the race. By the way, nobody deserves to say that they did anything more than anyone else on the Armenian Genocide .
It has been a 75-year effort as we were talking about. Many people, scholars, genocide scholars, Holocaust scholars, many people added to the affirmation of the Armenian Genocide in America. And starting with Morgenthau, starting with Lemkin, right through to the people in the last 10 years, 20 years, I think people like to raise the flag and say we won. This is not a win or lose situation.
So I was lucky enough at the very end to write a memo with Ambassador Nina Hachigian to the Biden White House. Now, I was lucky I knew President Biden before he became president, and I knew his heart was in the right place. If you remember, he turned to Samantha Power and to others at the 100th commemoration and said, I’m going to recognize this because very disappointing that President Obama did not recognize it. We thought he would.
So the fact that President Biden did it. But as I said, the presidents are nice. That’s important. But it’s really Congress that when both the House and the Senate affirmed it, that’s where the power is.
And that’s why in Israel we’re a little bit…
Asbed Bedrossian: Almost unanimously. Like a handful.
Anthony Barsamian: Right. Very few. I think it was 11 votes or something. But it was a very strong message to the world that the Armenian Genocide, for me, for you, should not be an Armenian issue anymore.
It’s an international issue. It belongs there with the Holocaust. It belongs there with major, major catastrophic events of our time. And certainly the Armenian Genocide has its place on the international stage now.
It’s recognized primarily internationally except for by Turkey. But that’s ludicrous at this point, and they can’t hold that line. Most people of Turkish persuasion that I talk to say enough is enough, and they actually want to recognize the genocide. It’s the governments that really have to come around to it.
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Barsamian, I, like you, have been driven throughout my life in terms of my choices and everything by my past, including the genocide, which my family was also affected by. And I feel that is… Same with the entire Armenian community worldwide, including many people in Armenia.
But what do you think is the role of the Armenian government, the Republic of Armenia in genocide recognition? And there is the current Armenian government has interpreted that role, I guess, a little bit differently. Maybe we can talk about that as well. What do you think?
It should be for the Republic of Armenia in terms of recognition of Armenian Genocide.
Anthony Barsamian: Okay, that’s a good question. So I’m going to give you a very organic answer then. About 12 years ago, I was in an Armenian bakery in Watertown, and there was a bus going by, and this young man missed the bus. So I said, I’ll give you a ride.
Where are you going? He said, Harvard Square. He must have been in school somewhere around Harvard Square. So when he got in the car, I was a young guy.
He was Turkish. And I said, what’s your thought on this Armenian Genocide? Because there are billboards around in Watertown. He said, oh, in another generation, everybody’s going to forget about the Armenian Genocide.
So that was very interesting for me because I think that a lot of people, especially maybe Turkish government, think that as the years go on and generations move on and Armenians become a quarter Armenian, they’re going to just like… forget this genocide issue. I think it’s absolutely the opposite. My kids are more committed to it today than I was at their age. So I think the Armenian government, and I’ve also heard this argument that, oh, the Armenian Genocide is a diasporan issue.
It’s not an issue. People in Armenia don’t care about it. That’s not true. If you look at how many people go to the genocide memorial, There’s close to a million people on April 24.
We got to keep that going. I think Armenia right now is trying to find its place on the world stage as a connected country. Whether we like it or not, we as Americans are different than people in Armenia. Their priorities may be different than our priorities.
We have the luxury to have Armenian Genocide as one, two or three for many years. Armenia probably had, you know, making sure that they have enough money and food on the table as one or two. So I think we have to be a little bit more realistic and say, where is the Armenian government? I don’t believe they’re going to forget about the Armenian Genocide.
I would hope that our priorities may be in a different place right now. I would hope that national security is their number one priority. I would hope that if they’re talking about connectivity, getting Azeris off Armenian land is a high priority. It’s got to stop this narrative of Western Azerbaijan.
If I was the head of Armenia, I’d start the narrative of we can go back to Baku if you’d like. If you’re going to talk about Western Azerbaijan, Armenians should talk about taking land to Baku, because that’s what we used to say. Enough with the rhetoric. Let’s get real.
If our neighbors are going to live with us in peace, that means everybody at the table needs to give up something. And that’s not an easy thing for me to say as an Armenian American, because we fought hard for Artsakh. I’ve been to Artsakh many times. I have friends in Artsakh.
I have friends in prison, as you do, I’m sure, as well. So for me, to have this situation, if people are going to get real about peace , then sign a peace deal. Do I think they’re going to sign? I don’t think so right now, unless they’re forced to sign.
So that being said, I think the Armenian Genocide always is on the table, and whether the government of Armenia likes it or not, it’s going to be on the table, because it’ll be on the table for Europe, it’s going to be on the table for America, it’ll be on the table for Turkey, most importantly. They’re going to have to deal with this issue someday.
Hovik Manucharyan: Well, the latest round of Armenian Genocide developments came only last month when the Israeli cabinet voted to unanimously pass a bill to essentially refer Netanyahu himself has intervened to stop the Knesset from considering the Armenian Genocide in Israel. It felt a little like deja vu seeing this recognition and then non-recognition or whatever, but what are your thoughts about this when you heard the news and what did you think was going to happen? Did you expect the Knesset to recognize?
Anthony Barsamian: I thought so, yes. I have close friends in Israel. I have some friends that are connected to the diplomatic corps in Israel, and we talk regularly. I was pushing hard that if they recognized, I would have gone to Israel immediately.
But, you know, this is a missed opportunity. Now it’s suspended. I’ve been told, and my good friend Nadav Tamir, who is head of J Street Israel, gave an interview recently in Armenia where he said the agenda is just too packed. We have a saying in Armenia, it’s time to really think through what we’re going to do here.
So basically, if we haven’t yet killed the leopard, let’s not sell the skin. Also, let’s not worry about what’s going to happen. Let’s work hard as we continue to do, build relations and make sure they recognize it. Was it Azerbaijan?
I’m not sure. Could have been. I think they have the Azeri thing pretty well figured out. So to me, that doesn’t sound right.
Was it the U.S. government? Could be. So the question is, we don’t know the answer yet. But it’s suspended.
It should be on the floor. It should go up for a vote. My personal belief, and I think you would share this belief, is if Israel, a country that suffered the Holocaust, does not recognize the genocide, then we’re in big trouble. What is happening in Gaza?
What happened in Rwanda? If we’re not clear about what is genocide, then we can put everything in play. So in 50 years, if some country close to the United States says stop talking about the Holocaust, then all of a sudden the Holocaust gets I’m a human rights advocate at my core. You speak truth to power always.
My message to my Israeli friends is that this is not the moment to backtrack or to pull back or not show moral courage. So every day we’re in that fight. So when you ask me Is the Armenian Genocide still relevant today? You bet.
And it’s relevant every day. It’s something that allows us to tell the world it’s time to recognize things that are true. Did the Holocaust happen? Yes.
Did the Armenian Genocide happen? Yes. Should Israel recognize? Absolutely.
We will continue to push them to do the right thing. They all want to do it. The question is when they’re going to do it and how they’re going to do it. 111 years later seems to be a little long for me, but if they’re going to do it, I’ll take it.
Asbed Bedrossian: Mr. Barsamian, this question doesn’t have to do with just Israel. When the nation finally recognizes the Armenian Genocide, what should be our expectations from them?
Anthony Barsamian: They should teach genocide. So I would expect that if Israel recognized the Armenian Genocide, immediately all the genocide and Holocaust museums around the world should be teaching genocide right next to the Holocaust. So should Yad Vashem. The rabbis should talk about it.
And they do, by the way. Don’t get me wrong. The one thing I think Armenians fail to understand is Israel is a very complex country. There are a lot of voices in Israel, as there are a lot of voices in the Armenian world, and a lot of advocates, a lot of my good friends.
And by the way, there’s a lot of good Turkish people, Taner Akçam for one and others. There are many. who have advocated for Armenian Genocide recognition. But it’s all about education and prevention going forward. But, you know, I once asked the Holocaust Museum, why haven’t you, you know, promoted the Armenian Genocide?
They said, we don’t work backwards, we only work forward. Well, that’s sort of a, that’s kind of slimy. That’s a cop-out. That’s a cop-out.
So I and I would go to them right after recognition and say, OK, what’s the first program we’re going to do with the Holocaust Museum to to promote a prevention of genocide and Holocaust together?
Asbed Bedrossian: So I completely agree with you, of course. But is that all there is? Is recognition just recognition? Is it just words?
And where does reparation fall on our worldwide search for justice?
Anthony Barsamian: I think reparations takes many forms. So the question becomes, what is true justice when you suffer a genocide? Some people believe it’s getting lands back. Some people believe it’s just them acknowledging.
I think for every Armenian, it’s a little different. But I think security for Armenia is absolutely at the top of my agenda, meaning never, never again shall Armenia be threatened by its Turkic neighbors, Azerbaijan, Turkey, and anyone else. I think we’re coming to a new place in the region. I’d like to be optimistic, but cautiously optimistic.
I think Armenia should arm up always. Security for Armenia is crucial. Good relations with its neighbors are crucial, including Iran. I’m one of the first people to say if I was an Armenian in Armenia, I think Iran is so important to Armenia, as is Russia, as is Georgia, Azerbaijan.
I mean, all these countries around Armenia need to have normalized relations. Why? It’s in their best interest. If no one’s going to invest in Armenia, The only way you’re going to get true investment and technology and all these things that everybody talks about is if there’s a normalized peace in the region and Armenia is respected within its borders, and everyone respects that.
And by the way, release of prisoners is a must. So you can’t have peace with Armenian citizens in jail in Baku. So my good friends, many of them, of course, Ruben Vardanyan, who I am close with, and the whole group of them need to be released immediately.
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah. In fact, over the last few days, just over this past weekend, there were some developments because Davit Manukyan, I think, wrote from jail asking Pashinyan for a stance to clarify his stance on the issues, on the charges that they are facing and the time that they are spending in Baku prisons and said, basically, if you don’t take a stand, this is basically you’re speaking for the Armenian nation and that you don’t care about us.
Anthony Barsamian: I don’t want to speak for the entire administration or the new administration, but I believe it’s a priority. I can’t believe anyone would want to see. I mean, when I went to Israel, I got off the plane. Every hostage that was held in Gaza, there was a placard with a photo and every one of them as you went down an escalator.
So I believe it’s got to be on the national agenda of Armenia. I just cannot believe anybody would have citizens in captivity. I just don’t believe it.
Hovik Manucharyan: So, your advocacy for the Armenian Church , you were a strong advocate, you were the first Eastern Orthodox president of the Massachusetts Council of Churches. Tell us a little bit more about, you obviously gave us a little bit of background already, but what is the role of the Church today in the lives of Armenian Americans?
Anthony Barsamian: So I think the church as it stands in America is quite healthy. I mean, you have to remember, people have built these churches. We can’t take credit for that. That was our grandparents’ generation.
And they did it with nickels and dimes. We can do it with $150,000 or $200,000 gifts like we can do today. My grandparents worked in the wire mills in Worcester. That’s how they started.
Our neighbor, we lived on a piece of land that the Antelias Church in Worcester was built, and he was a farmer. They sold his farm and they built a church, Guides Agdenalian. But the point is, The good news is, I think I’m going to look to my kids on this. My son serves on the altar, my daughter’s involved in Christian education, but they see the church very different than we see it.
We saw it as an existence, another extension of Armenian identity, of culture, of all those things. I think that is still important. But they also see it as a living, breathing church. They can go to Armenia and get their culture, or they can join a dance group in Boston to get, you know, those things.
But the church really needs to modernize a little bit. I think it’s going to have to go through some kind of change to be relevant to the next generation. My kids went to a prelacy school and they went to a diocese church. They could care less.
Their friends go to both. They go to any church. Our families built both Prelacy and Diocese Church in Worcester. That battle has been fought and it’s over.
To give you a real insight, in Worcester, you know, it happened when the, you know, we go back in history, people were really divided. The Armenian Assembly came together for those reasons, so people would start talking to each other, leaders would start talking to each other. We’ve achieved those things now. Our communities are more holistic than ever.
But to have two churches in one community where there’s not a need for it makes no sense. And I think I have to give the prelacy credit. I don’t think they’re building churches in communities that don’t need two churches. But really, it’s almost time for us to figure out a new model going forward.
I also don’t take credit for the church of today. I think our generation going forward and our children’s generation have to rethink what’s important. I certainly don’t believe in single-use buildings anymore. If you could build elderly housing next to a church, I’d rather serve the community or have a school or nursery school next to every church.
I think just having a church building for one day a week or a couple funerals and baptisms. It doesn’t make sense. You two who live in California see a much more vibrant community and your churches are much larger and you have schools. In the East Coast, we have to rethink all this because our communities are older.
And we need more services as it relates to schools, elderly, social services for incoming immigrants, even though let’s see how long that’s going to be, because I think most people now are living in Armenia staying or even moving back. So I do think that we have to rethink our communities as it relates to the churches, the heartbeat. But those centers are super important and they’re in great locations. I mean, go to a city and look with your Armenian churches.
It’s probably in the best part of town in many of the communities. So I do give our ancestors a lot of credit for what’s happened, but I’m going to look to my children to figure out what the next move is.
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Barsamian, so we’ve been dancing around some of the issues politically in terms of the Armenian government’s role, whether it’s the Armenian Genocide recognition, and now when we’re talking about the church, you were actually directly involved in a letter that was written to Pashinyan last year when the Pashinyan regime essentially started this campaign against the Armenian church. They didn’t start just yesterday, but they intensified it. I mean, we have some kind of an impasse right now.
My understanding is that that letter, which was also co-signed by Nubar Afeyan and a number of other well-known Armenian figures, was not received well by the Armenian government. They essentially, I think, Pashinyan threatened or somehow said, you know, you should watch out what you say and so forth. Are there reasons for the Armenian government’s current conflict with the Armenian Church, with the Catholicos? And how do you see the path forward and towards healing?
Anthony Barsamian: Yeah, that’s a difficult one. That was, you know, there’s only been two or three times that I’ve spoken out publicly. One was when a nightclub in Armenia that was a gay nightclub was bombed or was, you know, attacked. And I spoke, you know, for the rights of gay and lesbians in Armenia.
Do you think the church liked that? So you’re going to see me take tough stands when I think it’ll be helpful. The letter really was an open letter to the community. And unfortunately, I think it missed the mark because what we were really looking for was a discussion among the community, among the church leaders.
To take control and ownership of their church. So what I’m really sort of disappointed in is that delegates in all the countries didn’t say it’s time for a national assembly. They have the right, you know, the Armenian church is two-thirds lay, one-third clergy, which means lay people have a lot of say in the Armenian church. They should call a national assembly.
And I’ve talked about this, and I think that needs to happen. I think the church has to take ownership of its future. And I think the reason for the letter was we wanted to take it out of the hands of a conflict. Now, did it achieve the goal?
I’m not so sure. And I think I’ve cleared it up with the government. I’ve had quiet conversations. But I take responsibility.
You know, this is going to be very rare. I take responsibility for the letter because I thought it would make the situation better. And I’m not sure it did 100 percent. But I think Vehapar now knows that he needs to stay in the lane of taking care the best interests of the church.
And the government should probably stay in the lane of governing the country. That is the way it’s done in America. I think that’s the way it needs to stay. That being said, it’s still a work in progress.
You want to make sure that the leadership of the church is secure, but also you need the church to have a conversation. Do I think the church needs some level of change? Absolutely. Do I think that church leaders or church clergy should get out of the business of running businesses in Armenia?
Absolutely. So, you know, nobody’s perfect, I understand, but there are a lot of things that need renewal in the Armenian church, and only the delegates and the clergy in the church can do that. They should do it together, though. They shouldn’t do it based on different camps, they should call a church meeting, and let’s hope that that happens.
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Barsamian, but did this conflict start with the lack of a church meeting? I mean, my recollection of what happened was the Vehapar went to Bern, Switzerland, and talked about Artsakh, and the sequence of events was that the Armenian government got very upset, And we’ve seen the persecution. They actually, if you’re saying that now there’s a time for some kind of a resolution to this, he ran his campaign last month on unseating the Catholicos.
So do you believe that the Armenian government has changed this approach? You know, just give us a
Anthony Barsamian: little more. I don’t know. I don’t know. Look, President Trump went after the Pope and pretty directly.
So, you know, you wonder how much this is political or how much of this is real. I would just say that I can’t get into the mind of Armenia’s leadership. I’d like to continue that dialogue. We could just disagree.
I mean, the church is off limits for me by the government. Also, the church needs to make sure what their job is to save souls and not get involved in government business. I mean, it’s easy in the United States. We have the luxury of very strong church institutions and state institutions, and they don’t usually cross over.
They do at times, but they don’t. But when I saw President Trump go after the Pope, I was like, come on. I mean, it’s kind of like the same reaction in Armenia. When I see the government go after, or the Prime Minister go after the Catholicos, I’m like, come on.
Both of them need to not do that. It’s not good for society to have your religious leader under that kind of pressure, nor is it good for the political leader to make light of church authority. But it happens. I’m starting to become very realistic in the context of how we deal with Armenia.
I mean, unless you’re going to live in Armenia, you can’t take on these issues, but the church is different. We as delegates, and I’m not a delegate to the National Assembly, but if I were to be one, I have a say in the governing of the Armenian church. So that’s a different one. That is one that all Armenians around the world actually can participate through their parishes.
Why isn’t anybody calling for a meeting? I’m just surprised that there hasn’t been more of an outcry for church leadership to come together. Maybe it’s a little early because of the election and after the government gets seated, it’ll happen. But the church needs to grow and go through a renewal.
That’s how I’m approaching it, Hovik. I hope that sort of answers. I’m not going to get into the personalities of it, because I don’t want to make it personal. I think that’s the problem with these kind of things.
They get very personal between, and we didn’t really want to make it personal. We wanted to make it an open letter to the community to kind of take ownership of the Armenian Church.
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah, so I also agree that it shouldn’t be on the personal level, although I have to say that on the government side, they have been encroaching on the whole personal side of the deal. But it was the failures of this government on the political side and then the war that led to a humanitarian issue. And when the Catholicos goes to Bern, for example, and talks about a humanitarian issue, the ethnic cleansing and the refugee situation and everything. I did not take that as a political thing, but the government, of course, is extremely defensive about its failures.
So it’s trying to take it in the political field and saying that the church is encroaching. Most of us don’t feel that way. The government feels that way. There’s one aspect of this that really concerns me as a diaspora sitting in America.
This is we’re talking about the Catholicos of all Armenians. We’re not talking about the Catholicos of Armenia. We’re not talking about the Catholicos of the Western region or anything like that. This is the Catholicos of all Armenians and encroaching on the church by the government affects my life here.
Anthony Barsamian: Correct.
Asbed Bedrossian: How do we deal with this?
Anthony Barsamian: I think so. I mean, look, I feel like everybody needs to just bring the temperature down. You know, in America, if you disagree with the president, and I’ll give you an example. Our secretaries of state or our heads of government, the formers send letters all the time to the president.
And the president either can say one or two things. He can say, thanks for your letter. I’ll take it under advisement. Or, you know, forget it, go to hell, I don’t care.
You know, it’s like, they’re going to do one or two things. Armenia seems to need to get to that place. I mean, if the Prime Minister wanted to, he could just say a lot of this is, okay, I heard it, but thanks so much, I’m going to still run my government. The thing is, it’s a different place.
Armenia is different than the United States and I can’t impose how I see the world from the US perspective on Armenia. It seems to be a lot more intense when you look at church state. I’ve never seen I’ve seen a president go after a Catholic bishop. I’ve seen him go after the Pope.
But, you know, it’s all words. The thing is, I do think we all need to be a little more mature, a little bit more sober. And even myself, I went right to Armenia and I had meetings. I was received.
There were no threats. It was all fine. And I think that’s the way it needs to be. If we’re going to support Armenia at the end of the day, we have to support what we believe is to be their free right to do the right thing.
But if they don’t do the right thing, it’s probably important that they hear from us. How they hear from us is another question. You know, I just don’t see a lot of people. I mean, most people sent me a thank-you note or appreciated it.
Some people said, who are you and who is the group to send that letter? So be it. Leadership has its consequences. Some people are going to agree with you, some people aren’t.
So it is what it is.
Asbed Bedrossian: Right. Of course, if it was all words, it would be okay because I’m a little hot under the collar because we have a whole bunch of archbishops who are in jail. So it’s gone a little more than just disagreements in principle and words, to be honest.
Hovik Manucharyan: Mr. Barsamian, moving on, the Pashinyan government is essentially in full swing of its agenda of so-called pivot to the West. It’s been written about in the media. Obviously, we Armenian diasporans in the West feel like I mean, it’s a great thing in that, you know, some of them at least feel that this could make Armenia more democratic.
We live in democracies and we’d like to see, I guess, Armenia have better relations with the West. But life in global geopolitics is much more complicated and trade is not, you know, across the other side of the world, but in your neighborhood, in your region and security as well. So what do you make of the Pashinyan regime? And is it even really for the things that I mentioned, for Western values, for democracy?
Does that even have any role to play in the Armenian government’s decision?
Anthony Barsamian: As I’ve said earlier, I work with the governments. I’ve worked with all the governments. Some people don’t like that I’ve worked with other governments in Armenia. I think at the end of the day, there are two things that are important.
One is, are we serving the people of Armenia, first of all. So when I say I work in Armenia, I work for the benefit of the people of Armenia, not any one government, but I need partners to help the people of Armenia. That happens to be the seated government, and hopefully the Catholicos too. That being said, it’s a very difficult time in Armenia and America.
You don’t know what to say because you have ICE agents killing U.S. citizens, you have ICE agents killing people who are here legally. I would say that this is a difficult time here. In Armenia, there’s some calculation that they’ve made, and I think it’s that the freedom that they’ve had is important to them. I would say that anything to roll back the freedoms in Armenia would be a bad thing, would be a negative.
So if you’re sitting in Yerevan or Vanadzor or Gyumri right now, and you’re having more freedoms than you’ve ever had, if that ever gets rolled back, whoever advocated the rollback is not going to be popular in Armenia. So I would say I know that we have problems with democracy. I could imagine Armenia does, too. But I don’t know how I don’t know the threat assessments internally in Armenia day to day.
I don’t know what they’re up against. This is when I start to separate who we are as Armenian Americans from an Armenian who is in Armenia. I mean, I don’t run a government in Armenia. I don’t run a government here.
So I don’t know what the calculations are, Hovik, but I think the important thing is, is Armenia moving in the right way? I mean, there are things in Armenia I really think are going in the right direction. Are the things not going in the right direction? Yes.
Is it painful to me to see certain things happening? Yes. But I do think that we, like we do in America, if your boss tells you to do something that you disagree with, do you try to work with him or do you quit? And I mean, some people do quit and leave.
I’m not a quitter. I’ve not quit Armenia in 40 years. I’m not going to quit now. So I think it really comes down to sort of like the sports analogy.
Are you willing to fight the fight every day? Dust yourself off when you get knocked down. I don’t think we’ve lost Artsakh yet. I mean, I believe that, you know, 30 years ago we won.
This time we didn’t win this round. But Artsakh is still there. And Azerbaijan better figure out how to allow people to return there. That’s their homes.
And if they don’t, they’re creating a problem for the future. I don’t know if the Armenian government agrees with me on that one. But that’s the kind of thing where we all have our own opinions. But do we have to work together?
Yes. Will I continue to work? with the successive governments of Armenia? Yes. Most of my work is done with the diplomatic corps.
I also don’t believe that everybody should sit there and wring their hands because they don’t like one person in government, if it’s the leader or if it’s somebody else. Do your work. You know, the one lesson I’ve learned from the Armenian Tree Project is we go over and we just put the shovel in the ground, we put trees in the ground, and we make Armenia better day by day, one tree at a time. That simple.
Hovik Manucharyan: In terms of the overall direction, I think this government is claiming that they are pursuing a balanced and balancing foreign policy. All former leaders of Armenia have actually had some version of that claim. Do you believe that the Armenian government is actually practicing complementarity? And do you believe there are dangers if you don’t do that in a region where you have very strong superpowers who have also a role or who have a stake?
What is the best way for Armenia to avoid this conflict between global superpowers?
Anthony Barsamian: I’m trying to have complementarity, and I think it’s a good policy. I like the porcupine policy as well, is that if you’re armed up and you have so many weapons that nobody wants to mess with you, also you need some… What we learned in Artsakh, which is probably the mistake, is we didn’t have friends, and really good friends. I’m disappointed with Russia, and I should be, because they could have come in and helped.
Also, let’s see what develops in the region. I mean, maybe this opportunity to build relations with the West also is building relations with Russia and with Iran. I don’t know. I don’t know what the government’s calculation as it relates to Russia and Iran.
But I have to believe the region as a whole has become war-weary. I think if you had a discussion with the Ukrainians or the Russians, they probably don’t want to continue fighting. And I would never want to get in a situation where Armenia is that beaten back. Do I think Armenia could have kept fighting?
Probably. But they probably made a calculation. I’ve always said to people, when you look at certain capitals, whether you look at Kyiv, Tbilisi, Yerevan, Baku. Where would you want to live?
I’ll take Yerevan every day out of those four. So Armenia is free. You can come and go. You can live your life.
Is it fully democratic? Probably not. I’ve given interviews in Armenia. I’ve never couched what I’ve said.
I’ve been very open and honest. Nobody from the government has ever come to me and said, don’t say that. Nobody from the U.S. government has come to me and said, say this or don’t say that. So I think I’m an honest broker in this one.
I want to see Armenia. And look, we love Yerevan as a city, but I would love to see five other cities as prosperous as Yerevan.
Asbed Bedrossian: Absolutely.
Anthony Barsamian: That’s our goal. There’s so much low-hanging fruit there. Schools are important. Medical tourism is going to be huge.
Tech seems to be booming. I don’t need fish in Armenia. I know everybody loves the fish. I don’t believe in fish farming.
I mean, there’s certain things you don’t do in Armenia because it’s going to destroy the ecosystem of the country. Well, drilling in the Ararat Valley for fish is probably a bad idea. So I speak out against that. But there are certain things and values that we have as Armenians, I think, are unmatched.
So I’d like to really get people to focus on our values and see if we can’t align our values again with Armenia. So if there is some strain between the Armenian government and the diaspora, let’s see if we can’t realign our values and get back on the same page. Like I said, not everybody will take me up on that offer, and some people don’t want to deal with some people. I’ve never had a problem.
I mean, my brother and sister and I are very different, but we’ve never had a strained relationship. We’re sort of a family here, so it’s whether or not you’re going to talk to your brother or your sister here. That’s sort of the analogy I’ve come up with.
Asbed Bedrossian: Look, I’m going to pause on that question for just a second because that’s my last question I want to ask you. But before that,
Asbed Bedrossian: just to continue on this pivot to the West issue, I’ll be honest, I’m fairly partial about this because I have a lot of concerns. Because one thing you said is, is it in the way that he is doing this? And perhaps it is in the implementation that I have some problems. But instead of complementarity, I feel like there is exclusivity that is being driven.
The pivot to the West basically is meaning to cut out Iran and Russia and replace the security architecture with the West. Well, what I see is that the hand, the long arm of the West in Armenia and the South Caucasus is essentially Turkey. And this is a country that remains unrepentant about the Armenian Genocide. Most people say, oh, that happened 115 years ago.
It’s not relevant to today. To me, it’s very relevant. If there’s a country next door that wants to eradicate you, kill you, and get rid of you, this is a major problem and cannot be trusted. That’s why I have a problem with this so-called pivot to the West.
If America could suddenly land in Armenia and secure it for the next thousand years, fantastic, come and do it. Or Europe. But they can’t do it unless Turkey is willing to do that. And until Turkey becomes kind of a big brother to Armenia and says, bad things happened, we’re going to make sure that you are whole going forward, life would be different, right?
Anthony Barsamian: So I’ve always said, if Turkey becomes Armenia’s security guarantor because of the genocide, we’d be in a different place, like Germany and Israel. Exactly. Until Turkey acknowledges the genocide and says, not only will we never do it again, but we will become partly your security guarantor. But I don’t know if Armenia is just pivoting to the West.
I did go to the Raisina Dialogue in India, and the Indians are very interested and are working very well with Armenia. So I’ve spent time with Indians and Indian Americans because I believe that’s important. So this is really going to be a new opportunity for Armenia. Who are its partners?
Are its partners all the countries? Are they China and India and U.S. and Greece? I don’t know. I mean, that configuration is interesting.
I do know the Prime Minister, after the election, went to see Vladimir Putin. which is probably a good sign that they’re at least talking. I do know that also there’s trade restrictions on Armenia, which is not a good thing. I think Russia shot itself in the foot a couple of times. They probably shouldn’t keep doing it.
I mean, at some point, I think we as Armenians have to say, you know, we are a sovereign country and we need good partners. who are going to be our partners, and it’s got to be a little bit more of a bilateral relationship than a master-servant relationship. I don’t think Armenia’s in this anymore to be somebody else’s servant. So if that’s how the Russians look at it, that’s a problem for them, not for us.
Hovik Manucharyan: Well, I mean, my worry, Anthony, to be honest, is that it’s not just Russia that is looking at them, is that the entire geopolitical power of Armenia has been degraded that Azerbaijan is looking at Armenians as their servant. Aliyev has said that Armenians are not even worthy of being called servants. It would be a different thing if we saw Armenia pushing back on these things, right?
But what we’re seeing right now is that little schoolgirls who have pictures of Artsakh, of their homeland, in schools all over Armenia, their pictures are being torn down from the walls, and pictures of our heroes on the streets of Yerevan are being erased under the auspices of cleanup when the graffiti right next to it is being left alone. So is Armenia really, is it just really Armenia-Russia, or is it just Armenia’s power in general? And yeah, Russia is maybe not the best friend, but right closer to us, we have countries that probably would be happy not to see Armenia there. So how do we balance that?
Anthony Barsamian: It’s a tough question. I mean, this is where, you know, statecraft and diplomacy really come in. Listen, I’m one of those guys that if somebody punches you in the nose, you better punch them three times. It’s harder.
So, you know, I’m not really, I don’t have a lot of tolerance for Azerbaijan’s rhetoric and somebody better put them in their place. And if it has to be us, then we do it. But, you know, there is no way we should give up Section 907 until there is true peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan. They want it gone.
We’re not going to give it up. I mean, we have certain levers here in the West we can use, but certainly an election is a lever. So as we lead up to this midterm election, you know, now is the time for Armenians in America, at least, to get active in this because people really, I think, have not invested enough. I was talking to Ambassador Djerejian.
There needs to be more people into public service in this country. But as you look at Armenia, I think building up the diplomatic corps and building up the military are the only options we have. If we can help to do that by promoting assistance from places like France and India and other places, I mean, I would buy Russian armor if they would sell it. They don’t have it to sell right now, unfortunately.
So if the U.S. is supplying Armenia with technology, I would take it. I think this is more pragmatic. You know, when it comes to countries and how they work, I mean, I wouldn’t call Israel the most moral country in the world. They do what they have to do.
Armenia has got to do what it has to do. That being said, I would be, because I’m with you both, I don’t like losing territory. I don’t like softening our national identity. But again, at the end of the day, we are in a different geopolitical situation.
I’m not sure what the government is being advised from the outside. But would I put all my eggs in the Turkey-Azerbaijan basket? Probably not. But I think that Armenia is going to be smart enough to diversify and to make sure that all of its neighbors have a co-equal relationship.
How goods get in and out is very interesting to me. I’d like to see if Turkey actually does open up a rail line. Because that’s what they keep talking about, but that’s been talked about for years. So I have no answer for you, because it’s, again, I don’t want to sit in the diaspora to tell you what I think Armenia can do.
Only Armenians can control their future. They are destined to decide right now what they’re doing, how they do it, and how creative they’re going to be about that. I don’t think that’s our job. We can only assist them once they tell us what their game plan is.
Asbed Bedrossian: Mr. Barsamian, I think that’s a very important thing you said about the railway system, whether they’re going to open it up or something. It seems like in a geopolitical world, life is transactional. So there’s going to be a cost to opening all that stuff.
And one of the prices that they are trying to exact is the dropping of all historical charges. And when you drop the historical charges or claims that you have, for example, against Azerbaijan, Azerbaijan comes right back and says, well, you committed genocide on us and we’re going to prosecute that. So just like you said, if you get punched, you have to punch back.
But the important thing here, as we’re trying to wind this down is regardless of how we perceive the events of, well, 40 years, but also in the last years, the catastrophic loss in the 44-day war , the cleansing of Artsakh and stuff like that, we have ended up in a place where we are very polarized. Right. How do you see us moving forward? Because it’s a very difficult thing if somebody says, oh, we just have to come together.
And we have to get past our differences. Honestly, how would you tell me to drop my differences with someone like this government, the Pashinyan government, and accept that we’re ethnically cleansed and that’s a fine thing. To accept in our history. I don’t accept that history.
Just like you said, I don’t believe that story is finished. So how do I get past my polarization, considering that for the next year or many years, I’m going to wake up every morning and this guy is still prime minister?
Anthony Barsamian: Yeah, I think both of you are good Armenians. You’re nationalists. I think that that is where we have the struggle. As long as you’re both going to Armenia, I’m going to speak to you, too, because I think this is important.
If I see people saying, I’m not going back to Armenia again, that would worry me. But I think, you know, we have a saying in leadership. If somebody is really disappointed or has strong emotions about something, that’s a good thing. That means they care.
As long as Armenians around the world keep caring, it’s important. Look at governments come and go. And I know, you know, even this government probably realizes that someday they won’t be in power. They have a legacy they have to deal with.
So the question is, are they good stewards? Are they good caretakers of Armenia? That’s a tough discussion to have with them, but it’s one I’m willing to have. But also, if you’re there to help them do their job better.
And there’s going to be 10 things that they need to do. We may be only able to help them with two. So I would say do what you can and do the things that you do best. You know, Nubar Afeyan does technology well.
Make sure that he can continue to do that work in technology. Carolyn Mugar does environmental well. Make sure she can do that. Sam Simonian does education through TUMO well.
Make sure he can do that. Whatever we’re all contributing, I’d say do that. I don’t run the government, nor do I care to run the government. I don’t even care to run my own government.
I’m not involved as a political servant here when I’ve been offered to get more involved. The thing is, you do what you do. And hope that the leadership have enough wherewithal to protect the country. So do I have an answer for you?
No, I don’t. I think we’re, you know, history is being shaped right now and it’s going to continue to be shaped. But if I can help get the prisoners out, I’d be more than willing to do whatever I need to do there. Those are the kind of tangible things that we as diasporans, Armenian Americans can work towards is getting our friends out of jail, making sure the economy of Armenia is strong, and making sure they’re armed to the hilt.
Because if they have weapons, that would be a good thing. Also, Armenia needs good friends. I mean, I think, don’t belittle, or not that you’re belittling, don’t discount what I’m telling you. Armenia needs strong alliances.
So I don’t know where those alliances are right now, but I can tell you right now, the Americans aren’t sending a battlecruiser into Armenia. So we know that’s not realistic. But certainly India, Iran, even Russia, all these have to realign. And maybe Armenia is the place that U.S. and Russia and Iran start working on an equal playing field and actually have positive results.
That’s a hope. Israel too. Israel has made a step. They’ve recognized the genocide at the executive level.
Now the Knesset, their parliament, has to pass it. We should hold them accountable and they should do it, but I’m going to give them a little more time.
Asbed Bedrossian: Yeah, I completely agree with you. Mr. Barsamian, you also said that you are good nationalists. Yes, I’m an Armenian nationalist, but I’m also an American nationalist.
I’m also an Iranian nationalist and I’m an Indian nationalist. I think all good nationalists are basically patriots and we can all live together in a very diverse world. We’re going to have years of follow-ups to this conversation. We hope to have you back on the show and talk with you again.
Anthony Barsamian: I have great respect for both of you. I’ve been big fans and a good first discussion. I look forward to the next one.
Asbed Bedrossian: Thank you.
Hovik Manucharyan: Thank you, Mr. Barsamian.
Asbed Bedrossian: That’s our show today. This episode was recorded on July 21, 2026. We’ve been talking with Anthony Barsamian, who is a prominent Armenian-American attorney who has held extensive leadership roles with the Armenian Assembly of America. Where he has served as chairman of the Board of Trustees.
His efforts have been pivotal in securing U.S. aid packages for the homeland, advancing permanent normal trade relations between Armenia and the United States, and driving key humanitarian advocacy on Capitol Hill. Barsamian has also championed economic sustainability and environmental restoration through his executive committee roles on the Armenia Tree Project. You can see his bio on our show notes. podcasts.groong.org slash episode number. Click on the bios and you’ll get there.
Hovik Manucharyan: Folks, thank you for supporting Groong in the past. And I would just like to renew my call. We are just a small team of two people trying to do this. And we hope you enjoyed this content.
We want to bring you more content like this. Let us know what you think. And thank you again for supporting us.
Asbed Bedrossian: I’m Asbed Bedrossian.
Hovik Manucharyan: And I’m Hovik Manucharyan.
Asbed Bedrossian: See you soon.