Warning: This is a rush transcript generated automatically and may contain errors.
Asbed: It’s election season in Armenia. Break out your ponchiks and piroshkis and sit down for a fine Conversations on Groong, fun for the entire family. Hello everyone, Anna Grigoryan from the Hayastan Dashinq, Armenia Alliance, joins us today to discuss the political field leading up to June 7th, the parliamentary elections. Anna Grigoryan, welcome back to the Groong podcast.
Anna: Thank you for having me again. Thank you.
Hovik: We’re honored, Anna. Thank you for joining us.
Anna: Great pleasure for me.
Hovik: May 8th was the start of the campaign season or the official campaigning. Hayastan Dashinq started its campaign from Etchmiadzin. So can you tell us how it went and some of the decisions that went into deciding where to start the campaign? It seems like different parties, different political blocs started their campaigns in different locations.
And just tell us what your sense is so far on the second day of the campaigning.
Anna: Okay, so you’re right, saying that 8th of May was official launch of the campaign, but you know that we have already started the pre-election campaign, especially the ruling party was very active in campaign. But we chose Etchmiadzin to be the first point of our meeting with the compatriots because, you know, it was symbolic. Taking into account the attack against the church by the government, by Pashinyan. So we were there to very firmly claim that we will stand with church, with the Holy Catholicos.
And so it was once again reaffirming our support for the church. So that’s why we chose Etchmiadzin to be the first meeting to meet our people.
Hovik: Right. Okay, well then, let’s go directly to the meat of the matter. Last week, it was the EPC summit, then the Armenia-EU meetings, then Yerevan Dialogue. To us, it looked less like a neutral Occasion and neutral summit and more like a Civil Contract convention to nominate the next Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan and ensure that Armenia continues its westward pivot or whatever is understood under that term.
I think most people understand it differently. This was like J.D. Vance on steroids. Europe, NATO, Canada, I think even UK was there.
And yeah, it was all peace, peace, peace. What was the main goal of this summit for Pashinyan and, you know, how the opposition greeted it?
Anna: So when we first heard that EPC summit is going to take place in Yerevan on May 4th, right before the election campaign starts, we very openly and very expressly said that it was direct interference into our internal political affairs. Because when the whole, when all these people, the heads of the European countries come to Armenia and unequivocally supporting Pashinyan, it’s of course could be viewed as interference into our internal political affairs.
But we also made some protests to show Macron, others, that what you claim to be a democratic country is not in reality a democratic country, taking into account that we have political prisoners, non-democratic atmosphere in the country, especially before the election process starts.
So the main concerns were, of course, that it could be interference into our internal affairs, that they turn blind eye into what’s going on, the non-democratic processes in Armenia, the violation of human rights rule of law and of course it turned out to be that Armenia provides platform for anti-Russian rhetorics you know that Zelenskyy made aggressive statements in Armenia and it wasn’t perceived also well from Moscow so from the one side They failed to notice what’s going on in Armenia in terms of non-democratic processes. They unequivocally supported Pashinyan, hence interfering into our internal affairs.
And also, in fact, we gave platform to people who would make anti-Russian or anti-Iran, sometimes even anti- U.S. rhetorics narratives. So at the end of the day, one needs to understand what Armenia gains. Again, Ursula von der Leyen came here to say that the 2.6 billion euros are going to be provided to Armenia. So it’s already five years time.
They say it again and again.
Hovik: The elusive 2.6 billion. It’s been five years.
Anna: It’s been five years they have been saying this. So what’s interesting, Ursula von der Leyen goes to Baku, they’re signing different deals, energy and in other fields, but she comes to Armenia saying about this elusive 2.6 billion euros. So what I want to compare to so that the people who listen to us understand what we gain in reality, beautiful words, illusions, but in reality, Even though EPC summit was in Armenia, not in Baku, Baku gains a lot during these processes.
The same holds true for Meloni, like the Prime Minister of Italy, she came here and then to Baku, but in Baku they made different, I mean, very, they signed documents, I mean, practical steps were taken between the two countries. So what Armenia gained, I don’t know, maybe in different newspapers, the word Yerevan, Armenia were written, different places of Armenia were presented. It is good. But at the end of the day, the political gains have to be counted.
But unfortunately, I see that we have got more risks rather than benefits.
Hovik: I was looking at the dates of the previous summits, and I think this is the earliest it has ever been held in the year. I think most of the time it’s in June, July, October. So yeah, it’s very conspicuous that they chose a very early date for the summit this year. And it’s not just anti-Russian, right?
I think Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya was there as well, the non-recognized president of Belarus. Macron called Armenia before 2018 a satellite of Russia. Was Armenia a satellite of Russia? And how do you interpret those statements?
Anna: Okay, it’s such a pity that the head of such country as France expresses ideas that has nothing to do with reality. Macron himself was eight years ago in Armenia. So he came to a Russian satellite country. So it’s a disrespect towards Armenian people towards his predecessors, because all of them came to Armenia with state visit.
And we have really high level relationship between Armenia and France and those statements have nothing to do with reality. And by the way, if we just compare what happened eight years ago, I mean, the difference is, well, what was Armenia eight years ago and what is now concerning Russia-Armenia relations, right? So the Russian military base is still in Gyumri. We are still part of Eurasian Economic Union, and we are still part of CSTO.
So what Macron means, and we’re economically more dependent on Russia and Eurasian Economic Union than before. So what Macron means when we were a satellite of Russia before and not now, what has changed? What really changed is that we lost Nagorno-Karabakh, we lost Artsakh, And now we have more vulnerable situations around our borders. This is the only difference we have during this eight-year period.
Asbed: Anna, as you mentioned, Ilham Aliyev also remotely attended the EPC. He used the platform to again label Artsakh Armenians as terrorists, separatists and other terrible stuff. He slammed the EU for talking about Azerbaijan’s destruction of Armenian heritage and monuments in Artsakh. Well, so considering many European leaders were in Baku immediately before and after, what does this say about the relations with Baku versus the relations with Armenia?
Anna: Of course, it was disrespect for Armenian people and also European leaders sitting there when Aliyev started very aggressively talking about Nagorno-Karabakh, talking about their leaders, calling them terrorists, calling them separatists. And it was so shameful that our prime minister, de facto prime minister, unfortunately, he’s still prime minister, didn’t dare say a word. Yesterday, I had a speech in Etchmiadzin and I said the following sentence that the same Nikol Pashinyan used to sit together with Ruben Vardanyan, with Arayik Harutyunyan, with Bako Sahakyan. Were there terrorists then?
Were they aggressors then? So now how dare you not speak a word for them? So when they say we do our best to return our compatriots, how can we believe these statements if you do not even protect them in verbal terms when they are called separatists and terrorists in general? If you do not support them verbally in our country, how would you take actions to bring them back home?
So it was humiliating for me as a person, not only as a politician or member of parliament, but as an Armenian, that in my country, such narratives are used and they do not meet any, I mean, nothing was said against.
Asbed: Not just you. I think it was humiliating. He said, basically, we look forward to seeing you at the EPC Summit in 2027 in Baku.
Hovik: First he said, thank you. After that, he said, I look forward to being in Baku without even receiving an invite. He said, I look forward to being in Baku.
Anna: You remember that the church in Stepanakert was destroyed by Azerbaijan and Pashinyan was asked, why don’t you say a word for this? He said, well, you know, this is a new church. It could be destroyed. I mean, he legitimized destruction, elimination of Armenian cultural and spiritual heritage in Nagorno-Karabakh.
But yesterday he went even further saying that Artsakh has never been Armenian. it has never been Armenian and he was he was so confident in saying that once I could imagine that if he was Aliyev he would say the same no difference what Pashinyan says and what Aliyev would say in in terms of narratives they are identical there is no difference in their perception in their narratives so when he said It has never been Armenian soil. What has been built there? So this part of soil could be called Armenian. And he forgets about our cultural heritage that is left there.
He forgets about Gandzasar, Amaras, Dadivang. And this, of course, it’s a humiliation for every single Armenian, not only living in Armenia, but worldwide. And also it’s humiliating because Thousands of people gave their lives to protect part of our homeland. And now he very openly calls it not Armenian but Azerbaijani.
So, I mean, we are no more surprised. We are no more surprised.
Hovik: Yeah, I mean, also, we should mention that it was a functioning democracy. Considering all the things going against it, it was able to, you know, nourish itself from a wartime country to a democracy that was, you know, blooming.
Anyway, so opposition groups, I believe, including ARF, and I’m not sure if the rest, I believe other Hayastan Dashinq members were there as well, protested. to challenge the official image of the European support for Pashinyan and the themes of the protest were the rights of Artsakh refugees Armenian prisoners in Azerbaijan and Armenia’s democratic backsliding Protesters marched in Yerevan and gathered at various areas but they were kept far from where the actual events were happening And there were no open press conferences during the summit, so the press weren’t able to ask questions.
I want to ask, was the opposition protest or the voice of the opposition heard at all by the Eurocrats and the NATO-crats?
Anna: I’m not sure it was heard. Unfortunately, I need to say I’m not sure it was heard because the government was trying to preserve the sparial environment, the illusion of democracy. in the country. But as MPs, we very actively work with our colleagues from different European countries. We convey the message we have concerning non-democratic processes in Armenia.
So we work, but the very day of EPC, I’m not sure that our voice was heard, unfortunately. But we were talking about prisoners political prisoners and also prisoners that are held in Baku. You know, when Macron comes here, walks in streets of Yerevan or runs in the streets of Yerevan, which is very nice, of course, and says that he will talk to Aliyev concerning prisoners of war. We expect some kind of actions and results where really, as people, we are fed up with promises and not implementation of those processes, the promises.
The same was by also Trump. He said that he will talk to Aliyev concerning prisoners of war and hostages kept in Baku, but we still have no results. And so we are really tired of hearing these promises, hearing these beautiful sentences, but nothing on the ground, no changes on the ground.
Asbed: Anna, since the campaigns launched yesterday, let’s move from summit optics to the election mode. Europe has announced over 300 million euros of support and tens of millions, as you mentioned, for things like the hybrid rapid response team. And they’ve adopted the kind of terminology that tells us there’s a real crisis in Armenia, threats and foreign information manipulation and interference, et cetera, et cetera. Why is Europe treating the Armenian elections as if it was a war.
It’s a crisis. Whose crisis is it? Are Armenians going to decide the upcoming elections or Europe?
Anna: Of course, only and only Armenian people are going to decide our future. The only subject to decide the fate and the future of our country is our people, not the European bureaucrats and any group that’s sent to Armenia. But of course they are dealing with Armenia in the same logic as they were dealing with Moldova, somehow with Ukraine. So they see it as a process against Russia.
So what situation we have now in Armenia that because of Pashinyan’s actions, we are thrown to these global contradiction between the West and Russia.
Asbed: We’ve become a battlefield to all these sides.
Anna: Yes, of course. We’ve become battlefield against geopolitical powers. And any country that becomes battlefield for these geopolitical actors, no such country has, no one gains anything from the country but loses. It was the same for Ukraine, it was the same for Moldova, for Russia, for Georgia and why do we think that it’s the things going to be different for us.
So we’re going to lose this game. Either Russia or the European Union are going to gain. We as country are going to lose. So what we need to do is to refrain from any steps that brings Armenia to this battlefield.
But when we were trying to understand where this money goes, I mean, the European Union gives support for hybrid warfare. They’re afraid to say hybrid warfare against… I mean, they’re not trying to say… They fail to use the word Russia.
They don’t say that this war comes from… They do not. I mean, Armenian politicians… members of the government, they never say Russian. They say hybrid attacks, hybrid attacks.
I had the opportunity to ask Kristine Grigoryan, she’s the head of…
Hovik: External Intelligence, Foreign Intelligence Service. Foreign Intelligence Service.
Anna: Yes, absolutely. I had the opportunity to ask her what they mean when they say hybrid attacks. So can they bring an example of such a hybrid attack? And so, as an example, was provided a case where, for example, in the newspapers or wherever, it’s written that Pashinyan has bought, for example, a house in Canada.
I say, you really think this is a geopolitical hybrid attack against Armenia? Because such articles you can find about me, about Kocharyan, about any politician in Armenia, but nobody goes to European Union ask a lot of money to fight against such news. This is trivial cases that are trying to demonstrate as very important geopolitical attacks against Armenia. Meanwhile, we have very serious, not only hybrid, but general threat coming from Azerbaijan, as they call it, Western Azerbaijan, calling Armenia’s Western Azerbaijan.
This is very I mean, this is a real threat we have. We do not have threat coming from Russia in the context of hybrid warfare. But we have real threats coming from Azerbaijan. And they do not accumulate their resources to fight against Azerbaijani narratives, Azerbaijani actions in the context of Western Azerbaijan.
But they go to Europe to ask support to fight against such news, such fake news. But fake news are everywhere. I mean, everywhere. You remember perhaps that Kocharyan was accused to have $4 billion and for 10 years, more than 10 years, this information was widely spread in our society.
But nobody thought that one needs to go to other countries, to other political centers to ask money to fight against this news. I mean, fake news, this kind of misinformation and disinformation are everywhere, but it doesn’t mean that your country has to become a platform for these attacks from everywhere.
Hovik: Ms. Grigoryan, the latest MPG poll suggests that the opposition has a plausible path to forming a coalition government, but that path is very narrow and politically complex, I would say. Strong Armenia is currently the leading opposition force, according to the polls, with Hayastan Dashinq being the second and they’re around the threshold, so depending on the margin of error of the poll. First of all, is your alliance concerned about the 8% threshold to get into parliament?
A lot of people are criticizing Hayastan Dashinq for not running as a party, for instance, as part of the ARF, in which case you would have a 4% threshold running as an alliance.
Anna: Hovik, I want to be very frank. I don’t know why such narratives are widely spread, because we have no concerns concerning the threshold. We think about much more. We think about real impact on election processes and on the outcome of the election processes.
We do not think about 8%, really. We are also doing these polls and we are very much sure that I mean it’s not our concern really, but we see that some people from specific political parties focus very much on this, trying to delegitimize the processes we are engaged in. So they can say that do not vote for this party because they are not going to get 8% so that they, I mean, they are trying to tell other people tell people to vote for other parties so but we are not concerned really we’re not concerned and we see real opportunity for the opposition this time all together gain more votes rather than Pashinyan yeah and everyone we talked to
Hovik: says that a higher turnout is in favor of the opposition meanwhile I think that you know On purpose, the government is trying to create a sense of apathy among the population, and I think that their goal is to minimize the turnout, or at least minimize the turnout among the people who would vote for the opposition. How is Hayastan Dashinq treating that problem, and how are you trying to increase the turnout in these elections?
Anna: You’re right. We see it as one of the main challenges we face, the turnout of people in the elections. But this is the task we need to handle, not only us, but all the opposition parties, because the turnout really plays a huge role. For example, in Gyumri, a collective opposition managed to win the elections because of the high turnout in the elections.
So this is the challenge we have, but we are working on that. We’re talking to people. So the whole election process is going to be based also, I mean, one of the messages is that you need to take part in the elections. You need to decide your future.
So this is one of the messages we convey to the people.
Hovik: Okay. and I have to ask this question because there’s been a lot of doubt or misinformation in the media or if Hayastan Dashinq doesn’t get the majority right so it doesn’t get to dictate its own prime ministerial candidate would you support changing Armenia’s constitution to allow Samvel Karapetyan to become prime minister Has your party or has your alliance either ruled out that scenario or confirmed or talked about it in any way?
Anna: First of all, I think that especially in the campaign process, no political party can… I mean, everyone says, and it’s normal that we say that it’s too soon to discuss such scenarios. The main scenario, the main Scenario we have is to work with people to gain the most possible votes from the people. So this is the main scenario relate what what turns to be out as an outcome of the election.
So when we come to that process on the June 8th of June, we will decide what we are going to do. But one thing is clear, we will support any process that leads to the change of the government. That leads to the reality that we do not have Nikol Pashinyan as Prime Minister. So this is the main goal we have.
Hovik: Okay. Alright, well, last question on this topic. Some political forces have said that we need to have… Strong Armenia.
Asbed: Just say, strong Armenia.
Hovik: It’s not just strong Armenia. And I don’t know, I don’t want to quote exactly, but there is a sense that after these elections, there is a need for solidarity among people and in the society. So some people have been talking about blanket amnesty or some kind of an amnesty for whatever happened in the last eight years. I think I heard an interview with Robert Kocharyan who said that, yes, we need solidarity, but people who have committed crimes must be tried, the serious crimes.
Can you clarify that position? Would you support, for instance, an amnesty for, let’s say, a humanitarian corridor for Pashinyan to leave maybe Armenia and maybe Alen Simonyan? And if not, where does that totem pole stop? Because I think it’s really important also to have justice be served for all the issues that happened over the last eight years.
Anna: We of course want unity and solidarity among our society. This is really main aim we have today because we see how divided we are in the society. At the same time, we believe that those who are responsible for the loss of Artsakh, for the loss of thousands of our compatriots, They have to take responsibility. They really have to take responsibility because solidarity never comes without justice.
I don’t want to say that every single member of the Civil Contract has to take responsibility because the majority of them didn’t even know what’s going on. They didn’t take part in the decision-making processes. But several people who are really responsible for the destruction And for all these years, what we lost, they will take responsibility. And Hovik, I want to tell you that we are, the party, I mean, our alliance and Kocharyan is the main person who speaks very clearly on this message, who conveys this message to people.
Because all the other parties, this way or another, they’re trying to, I mean, they’re not that clear as we are in this context.
Asbed: Anna, I want to stay on the topic of the opposition leadership. Now, Gagik Tsarukyan and Arman Tatoyan have said that they would not join any coalition where Robert Kocharyan is going to be prime minister. So the key question is not whether the opposition can win enough points to get on the board, but whether they can agree on something, some kind of a formula after the vote. How does Hayastan Dashinq, how do you reconcile these issues within the opposition so that it doesn’t crumble from segregation.
Anna: It’s a pity that some forces and politicians try to target other opposition figures rather than, I mean, focusing on their messages, focusing on their work with the people. For example, in the case of Tatoyan, it’s really a pity that he He very frequently targets our leader and our faction in general. But he himself has a challenge to enter the parliament. We seriously doubt whether he will have this opportunity to enter the parliament.
But before doing that, he says that he will not join us or he will not support the leadership of Robert Kocharyan. But anyway, we are very clear. I think we unequivocally say we will support any process that leads to having a prime minister whose name is not Nikol Pashinyan. If they are not ready to support a process, even if Kocharyan becomes prime minister, if they are not ready to support the change of the government, so all the questions are to them.
So who they are struggling against. So a lot of questions rise here. But we are very frank with you, with the people, that we are doing our best to be the most influential political party in the opposition. But even if not, we’re going to support all the changes.
We’re going to support the changes. And we also have this very clear message that the party from the opposition that gets the most votes has the right. I mean, logically, the political logic suggests that they have the right to nominate prime minister and we will support that. Any process, again, any process that leads us to the change of the government, we will support that.
And we want to have the most influential part in these processes.
Asbed: Understood. Now, let’s talk about day one. If Samvel Karapetyan cannot be prime minister on day one for constitutional, residency, and such issues, and Robert Kocharyan is not an acceptable candidate for the coalition member, who are the next people in line between the two parties? The most likely opposition parties being Strong Armenia, Hayastan Dashinq.
Who are the next people in line for a prime ministership if those two Major figures are not the right people.
Anna: Asbed, I think we need to have another interview after the elections to discuss all this stuff.
Asbed: So you want to defer that?
Anna: Yes, yes. In the process of campaign, and we think that we are the power, we are the party to take responsibility for the future of our country. And right now discussing who we are going to support, if not Kocharyan, no, we say that we are the team with the leader that is that will be able to change the situation in Armenia. So that’s why I don’t think that is the right time to discuss all the scenarios.
All the scenarios, of course, we understand we need to discuss somehow, but we mainly focus on gaining the most possible votes from our people. And of course, we will have another interview right after the elections.
Asbed: That’s good, but I’m an impatient person. You are number three on the party list for Armenia Alliance, and you are definitely not a divisive figure. In fact, you are a very strong figure to bring people together. As a leading figure in a possible opposition coalition, do you think that Armenia is ready for a woman prime minister?
Anna: No. I will be very short. No. Not only our people.
Well, I understand that people, they are not ready to see women prime minister, but also if we are talking about myself, I myself, I’m not ready for such position. I’m a responsible person. I understand that this is a huge burden. One needs to be ready for such burden.
We have occupied territories. We have prisoners of war. We have so many issues concerning the economy and the rest. We need a person who understands how to deal with these issues.
Who will talk to Aliyev, to Erdogan, to Putin, to Trump, to European leaders. We need a good negotiator. This is not a good time for experimenting. This person, that person.
We need to have a leader. Who knows what to do? Who knows how to do this? That’s why we think that Robert Kocharyan is the right person in this period of time.
Okay.
Asbed: All right. I’ll accept that answer. Although I have to say, the Prime Minister would not be doing it all by themselves. They will have a team.
They have qualified people. The Armenia Alliance is not an empty bucket. You would have a lot of support.
Anna: Yes, and I will have my contribution. Yes, of course, I’m ready to have my contribution in these processes. But leading it, believe me, I still need some time.
Hovik: Five years.
Anna: Okay.
Hovik: All right. So… I wanted to get a little more detailed sense about the platform for Hayastan Dashinq. What are going to be the key priorities of the alliance, both domestic and foreign?
So what is the core message? What are the issues that you are focusing on and the messaging that you’re focusing on to the people? If you have to pick, let’s say, three or four top issues.
Anna: So, security. Number one priority we have is security. If I could even say number one, number two, number three, number four, number five priority is considered to be security. Even though this government says that we live in peace and thus we are in a secure environment, we don’t think so.
We have occupied territories, we have vulnerability huge and so we need to secure that the right processes are going on to safeguard the security around our borders. So the first thing is security. Competitive economic processes. I mean, we have eight, almost $15 billion debt, state debt, and we do not have competitive economy.
So we need to also deal with this issue. We also suggest free higher education. And so this is one of the main priorities we’re going to suggest to our people. In six months you will see that all prisoners, political prisoners will be freed and we will have active negotiations with Aliyev and not only with him to ensure that all our prisoners of war are back to Armenia.
Because it is humiliating to talk about peace in the situation when you still have your compatriots having the same passport as you do in Baku. So having negotiations, continuing negotiations with Azerbaijan, with Russia, with Turkey. And by the way, as we have also spoken about this, we will not bring Armenia, we will not make situation that Armenia becomes battleground. And by the way, I heard today that Putin said that Armenia has to choose in a very short period of time to get out of the Eurasian Economic Union or to stay in it.
So Eurasian Economic Union or EU. And so this dilemma is put in front of us and the adventurous politics of this government will lead to but willing to lose the market of Eurasian Economic Union without being ready for the European Union market.
Hovik: Do you think we can even be ready for EU, let’s say, in 10 years? Because I think there are some countries, the list of countries waiting to be admitted to the EU is like 10 or 11. So it will be number 12. And some of those countries have been waiting for three decades or more.
Anna: So we have very vivid examples right in our neighborhood Georgia has been going through this processes for a very long time and now they stopped it after losing so much in economy on the ground in the military terms. So I’m also the same for Ukraine, the same for Moldova and we need to be pragmatic. We need to be very pragmatic. For example, now Jermuk has been prohibited in Russia.
Jermuk cannot be sold in Russia.
Hovik: The mineral water, right?
Anna: The mineral water, right, the mineral water. So if we’re going to the European Union, so why not you ensure that Jermuk can sell its product in the European Union? So they know that we have serious problems. And unfortunately, these adventurous politics, they use everywhere in terms of Artsakh negotiations, and now they do the same in terms of economy.
So we will have these balanced negotiations and relationship with both Russia, Iran, the US and the European Union. So security, education, negotiations with main partners and not only partners, and economy of course.
Asbed: So on the issue of security, I’d like to just add one more thing that there was a poll recently by MPG, which indicated that 60% of the respondents in Armenia did not want any kind of an integration, either with Russia or, for example, the European side or anything. So it doesn’t look like there’s a mandate from the people. to pivot or not pivot. They want an independent and strong Armenia. Can you talk a little bit more about the kind of foreign policy, the kind of Ministry of Foreign Affairs that a coalition with Hayastan Dashinq would cultivate for a strong and independent Armenia?
Anna: Okay. So, first of all, these EU membership illusions We do not want to use this in communicating with our people. We want to be very frank and say that we will not become a member of the European Union in the near future. The European Union itself has a lot of challenges.
As the geopolitical actor, we do not know whether they will preserve such a global geopolitical actor or not in the coming years. So they are not ready for enlargement. They themselves do not see the enlargement process possible for the European Union. Hence, we will not become member of the European Union.
And so all the actions taken with Russia and Eurasian Economic Union should not I mean, we should not harm what we have with Eurasian Economic Union with Russia and other actors. So this is first of all, but of course, we will continue our cooperation with the European Union. They are also our partners. We have a separate agreement that has to be implemented, which was signed by the previous government and which was not implemented by this government.
In terms of Iran, we see that Certain actions taken by this government also raised a lot of questions in Iran, specifically concerning TRIPP project, TRIPP project, and it’s on pause. We see that it’s not going anywhere concerning because Iran and U.S. were on the ground. And if these relationships, I mean, Iran and U.S. relationships are not, I mean, the We have more questions about the TRIPP, but
Asbed: A quick question first. How would you deal with the rights of Artsakh Armenians to return to their homes? How would you deal with Azerbaijan directly?
Anna: First of all, we need to put this on the table. We need to raise this issue. First of all, if you want to have certain outcome, you need to, first of all, put the issue on the table. Now the government says that we shouldn’t speak about the return of people of Nagorno-Karabakh because Azerbaijan will speak about the return of Azerbaijanis to Armenia.
Well, this is not the same issue, but well, even if it is so, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t speak about the return of people of Nagorno-Karabakh, because this is international right, this is natural right of the people to go to their homeland.
And even though we do not speak, Azerbaijan has very strong strategy of bringing 300,000 Azerbaijanis to Armenia so we do not speak about our natural rights of our people of Nagorno-Karabakh but they speak and not only speak they take actions they make it an international agenda and they are working it’s a state policy well it is state policy it’s funded by Aliyev’s office Yes, our state policy is not to talk about the issue of return of collective return of our compatriots. Their state policy is to bring Azerbaijanis to our country.
So first of all, you need to raise the question because it is international right and a lot of countries will support us. We see that the different countries support this idea from Canada to Switzerland, a lot of I mean, a lot of discussions are held in different parliaments. So this is an international agenda. This is an agenda that could be supported by different international actors, and we will bring it to the table.
Asbed: I agree with you that we are a disaster of a zone as far as negotiation goes. I mean, if these conversations about putting people back where they came from five years ago, 25 years ago, 100 years ago, the conversation goes very far back. It doesn’t stop. with Azerbaijanis returning to Armenia. What about people from Sumgait, Baku?
There’s a lot of history there that this government has completely abdicated on our rights.
Hovik: Absolutely. Pashinyan says that if he doesn’t get constitutional majority not even win but constitutional majority there will be war it will be the end of the world perhaps even the universe but I think lately they have fine-tuned that narrative and I’m not sure who they asked in Parliament that question they said that you know tell us directly If you come to power, would you renegotiate the initialed peace treaty or the draft peace treaty between Armenia and Azerbaijan?
So I want to ask you directly, if the opposition comes to power, if Hayastan Dashinq comes to power, would you support renegotiating that treaty or would you accept it as it is?
Anna: So first of all, this very idea of negotiating or renegotiating has been demonized. So if we are able to get something better, why shouldn’t we try? Or if they want to say that this is the ideal document for Armenian people, this is not. So we need to take steps to make it better.
Of course we will do that. And it doesn’t mean war. It doesn’t mean war. Because non-negotiating brings war.
But we are talking about negotiating. Why are you against negotiating? And this says Pashinyan that in 2018 he himself he didn’t want to negotiate in fact opening door for war so we are going to negotiate we’re going to make this document better that will safeguard interests of Armenian people of our country and we will do that and it will then bring war because how cynical how cynical it sounds that the party that brought all the wars to Armenian people every time they got elected. After that, they brought war to Armenian people.
In 2018, they got elected. In 2020, there was war. In 2021, they got re-elected. After that, we had different wars.
In ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh and also attacks against Armenia in Syunik, in Gegharkunik, in Jermuk, right? So how cynical it sounds that the party and the leader of the party that brought three wars to Armenia and every time they got elected they brought war to Armenian people they they accuse someone else that they will bring war to to to Armenian people and especially when they say that Robert Kocharyan if he comes to power then the war will start we say that during his tenure for 10 years there was no single war So, people have to see the reality.
Pashinyan with his three wars or Kocharyan with no war on the ground and the best negotiating packages for Nagorno-Karabakh problems.
Hovik: The same question about TRIPP. I heard you say that TRIPP is dangerous, it will bring foreign powers to Armenia. President Kocharyan has said that he would like to propose extending TRIPP to also include unimpeded access to Armenians going through Azerbaijan to connect with Yerevan, to connect with Iran, to connect with Russia. But at the core of it, TRIPP is a US project.
The only other party besides Armenia currently on paper is the United States under Trump.
Asbed: As a majority holder.
Hovik: Yes, 74% holder. So how would you approach that topic when, at least legally, the head of the government has signed papers giving 74% of that project to the United States in a way that would accommodate the interests of Russia, Iran, and even China as part of these major world powers, essentially, major regional powers?
Anna: In fact, TRIPP has become a US project for Turkey and Azerbaijan. So Azerbaijan has been given unimpeded path and US presence there. And so US has its presence on the road. But I do not believe that if Iran and US relationship are not on the ground.
I mean, there is no reconciliation between US and Iran. This TRIPP project will not come true. So right now, speaking about TRIPP is really unrealistic. As long as there is war with Iran, there is this united forces of US and Israel are still thinking about attacking Iran again.
I think this TRIPP project has been put on pause. I do not see the realization of this project. But we are going to renegotiate again. It doesn’t have a negative connotation.
Renegotiating will bring to better terms for Armenia. So you know that in that 74-26%, this 74% of the US package can be sold to the third party. Anyone. To anyone.
So and there has been no restrictions from the Armenian side put on the table. So tomorrow, the US after Trump, maybe, if the US is not interested in the project, he can, I mean, the US can give it to any country and most likely to Turkey or to Azerbaijan. So and Armenia will not be able to say its word there, because it hasn’t been written. So renegotiating this package will be very important for Armenia.
Asbed: Do you have details of Kocharyan’s vision for TRIPP as a renegotiated project? Because one of the things we’ve heard is that it would be expanded from the segment that is about 42, 43 kilometers inside Armenia to also include a bunch of land, I mean, a bunch of corridor inside Azerbaijan.
Anna: So first of all, it was This idea was expressed before the war in Iran. But the general idea was that if TRIPP is only a path for Azerbaijan from Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, then it has to be expanded. So Armenian interests are met also in this project. So Armenia has also some routes with the same regulations as we have on the path of TRIPP.
So Nakhichevan I mean, also has to be activated. So we are as people, as country have to gain something from this project. If this project is limited to only unimpeded path for Azerbaijan going through from Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, so it has nothing to do with us. Our whole transport system is separated from this project and we suggest that this project is enlarged so our interests are also met but of course this was these statements were before the war in Iran and as I have already said as long as the war in Iran is still on the ground it is not realistic I mean it’s it’s absurd to talk about this project
Hovik: Before politics, you were an educator, which makes you, I think, the czar or queen of the Hayastan Dashinq’s education policy. And we were speaking with Jeffrey Sachs. I think in both episodes when we interviewed him, he basically said that The most profitable investment that Armenia could do is in the future in the knowledge of the future generation for a small country with security issues like that. It’s really the most logical choice for Armenia.
So very quickly, what is your assessment of the current state of education? What are the problems and how are you going to address them? We heard We heard free higher education, so that’s great. Maybe we can talk more about that, but also in general, maybe K to 12 or what they call, I guess, the regular schools.
Do you see any problems that need to be addressed over there?
Anna: Yes, we have fundamental problems in the education system in general. Right now, the policy of the current government, I will talk about our ideas, but what I want to emphasize is that current government, whenever they are talking about education system or the change in the education system, they are talking about buildings. They are talking about new schools or academic city, right? So the buildings, which are also important, but they are not the essence of the education system.
So what’s the essence? Of course, we have to talk about the teachers, we have to talk about the professors. Unfortunately, our teachers and professors do not earn enough to be able also to focus all their attention on the education processes. I know a lot of teachers that have to take another job, so it also hinders the process of this education process.
These 12 years of school years are not effective. This is the first thing I want to emphasize. Specifically, the classes from 10 to 12. This is the upper school.
These are not effective. This is not effective, really. I used to teach students in the 12th grade, 11th grade, 10th grade. The programs we have for these students, it is not effective, it is not productive and it has to be changed.
What I imagine is also the school is not only a place of education, but also some values are accumulated, some values are taught at school, which unfortunately we do not see today. The Armenian national ideas have to be very clearly taught to our students. Now, of course, we know that the globalist ideas have come to our school. First of all, we need a good citizen.
Of course, we need to have good citizens, but that good citizen has to be a good citizen for his country, first of all, then a good citizen to the whole universe.
Asbed: Well, in the diaspora, we actually know that many of these things that this government is pushing as in saying Nzhdeh is a fascist etc etc have been Turkish narratives for forever for a century at this point so let me pivot to maybe our last section and that has to do with the elections themselves it seems to us well so once again relying on the MPG poll that came out it was asking if these elections are somehow falsified Would you take real action in the streets? And to me it seemed like it was about 50-50 divided. 46% said they would take action. 49% said they would not take any action.
What is the opposition? doing about preparing for a possibility of falsified elections. Specifically, we know that there are some big differences. Some people, well, for example, the Republican Party believes that there should be actions right now. Hayastan Dashinq thinks let’s concentrate on the elections and let’s win the elections outright.
But what happens to Plan B? If these elections are Al- Yeah,
Hovik: shouldn’t there be some momentum built up for post-election processes, just in case, because we cannot, I mean, I think no one can exclude… Al- Yeah, there has to be a plan B.
Asbed: Because we’re seeing so much money flow from Europe, theoretically, for hybrid threats, meaning to say, let’s keep the Russians out, let’s falsify the Armenian elections ourselves. Well, okay, plan A is that win the elections. What’s plan B?
Anna: If there are falsifications in the elections, all the opposition parties have to be ready to go out to the streets To protect the voters, to protect the votes of the Armenian people. I mean, this is very clear for every opposition party, I believe. Because a lot is at stake, our whole country is at stake. So our identity, I mean, this is really, I believe this is fatal election.
And so we need to approach to the elections and post-election processes in the same way. If there are falsifications, then all the political parties have to be ready and will be ready to go out of the streets to protect our voters, to protect our people and our future.
Hovik: Are we getting more questions? No, I think it’s too late for this week, so let’s close.
Anna: It’s always my pleasure to talk to you. Hopefully we meet after the elections. Talk about the victory the opposition had.
Asbed: God willing. Thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time. I know you’ve been on the road and it’s not very easy to take time wherever you are in whatever city you are.
Anna: As you can see, I’m a little bit tired. As you can see, I’m a little bit tired.
Asbed: More power to you every day.
Anna: Thank you so much.
Asbed: Take care. Bye bye. Thank you. That’s our show.
That was a good conversation recorded on May 9, 2026. We’ve been talking with Mrs. Anna Grigoryan. She’s a member of the Armenian Parliament with the Hayastan Dashinq, no party affiliation.
And she is currently busy campaigning for the June parliamentary elections in Armenia, June 7th.
Hovik: And on this occasion folks I would like to congratulate you on both May 8 and May 9 May 8 being the day of the liberation of Shushi which we will return to one day and May 9 being the day victory day for which Armenia had a major contribution in terms of lives and our forefathers paid a heavy price so that Armenia today can stand on their shoulders happy happy victory day and we hope you enjoyed this podcast I’m Asbed Bedrossian and I’m Hovik Manucharyan have a great day take care